Ujung Gunung pamor and Combong

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2022, 09:07 PM

Jean, the name I would use for those pamors shown in your post #9 would depend on who I was communicating with and what my feelings were at the time.

The ways in which we determine how to name something like this depends upon many factors.

That little phrase "name game" gets bandied about fairly frequently, but not many people understand the rules of the game. I think most Javanese people do understand. Instinctively.

Rule #1:- chose a name that you feel --- note FEEL, not believe or link to reason, FEEL --- will be understood by, and will not create a negative reaction from the person you are dealing with.

When we understand the keris and the society it comes from, we see pretty clearly that we need to create some degree of harmony in order to get anything from any discussion.

Empu Suparman's approach to naming a pamor was to try to understand what it was that the maker tried to create. But he did not necessarily try to get anybody else to agree with him. If he thought that the maker might have been trying to create, say, ujung gunung, and the other party thought perhaps it was adeg gone bad, there would be no dispute. No dispute, but simply a statement of opinion.

HOWEVER, and it is a big "however" the hierarchical position of the other party automatically dictated the name to be used during that interaction.

Where a person did not wish to use his hierarchical position he simply gave no commitment to any one name.

After all, the more names, the better.

Basic Javanese societal guideline.

Jean · 19th February 2022, 09:13 AM

Thank you for your reply Alan, and it demonstrates the huge gap between the traditional Javanese and Westerner's way of thinking and communicating (no commitment), but this is changing quickly I think due to the foreign influences.

A. G. Maisey · 19th February 2022, 10:17 AM

Yes Jean, change is a constant, it affects us all.

With Javanese values there might be changes, true, but the way it seems to work in Jawa is that new ideas, new ways, new understandings can come into the society, but those new things get assimilated and become something that is then uniquely Javanese.

There is something that a lot of people fail to realise, and it is the deep effect that the hierarchical way of thought alters everything that is subjected to that paradigm.

However, this structuring of all things into a ranked order weakens the further one moves from the cultural center of Jawa. We must not think of Jakarta, Surabaya and other major cities as subject to the same interwoven threads of hierarchy that applies in Central Jawa, especially so outside of the commercial heart of the cities.

One thing that is so deeply ingrained into traditional Javanese thought is that one must always give the questioner the response that one believes, or feels, that the questioner expects. When the respondent to a question is hierarchically placed at a lower level than the questioner, then it becomes imperative to give a response that is in agreement with what one feels the questioner wishes to hear.

Now, consider that cultural trait for a moment when we try to assess the accuracy, or truth of any response that we might receive to any question, if we are an outsider , moreover, an outsider whom many within Javanese society will place hierarchically above themselves.

So, if I chose to reply to your question about the name I would place on those pamors you enquired about, AND I had my Javanese hat on, I would either agree with you, or vary my agreement so slightly that variation would be hardly noticeable.

In fact, the name that we choose to place on any pamor is totally unimportant. Totally. Totally. Totally.

What is important is firstly to understand how the pamor was made, and equally important but from a different perspective, how we can read the talismanic qualities of the pamor by understanding what the motif is intended to convey.

As for accurate answers to questions, well, that depends very much upon the situation. A son might might get accurate answers from his father. A student might get accurate answers from his teacher, but if the father and the teacher are behaving in accordance with Javanese standards, the accuracy of the answer will be qualified by what he feels the student is able to understand.

To my mind, the only way to truly come to an understanding of the keris, is first to come to an understanding of the society that gave it birth.

If we do not at least try to do that, then we are no more than stamp collectors.

David · 19th February 2022, 04:28 PM

Please forgive the bad cellphone photos, but i didn't feel up to breaking out the real camera for this.
Here is one more example of this type of pamor, this time on an older keris in my collection that came in East Jawa dress.
I have always considered it Ujung Gunung though others might see this as Junjung Derajat or Raja Abala Raja i suppose.

A. G. Maisey · 19th February 2022, 08:20 PM

My thoughts run pretty much the same way as yours, David.

But I know at least one very knowledgeable person in Solo who would initially give that as junjung derajad, however if I were to then call it unjung gunung, it would continue to be called ujung gunung during our conversation.

So does that mean the Solo person & I would be in agreement?

No, not at all.

All it would mean is that I'm a wee bit higher up the ladder.

19th February 2022, 04:28 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Please forgive the bad cellphone photos, but i didn't feel up to breaking out the real camera for this. Here is one more example of this type of pamor, this time on an older keris in my collection that came in East Jawa dress. I have always considered it Ujung Gunung though others might see this as Junjung Derajat or Raja Abala Raja i suppose. Attached Images

18th February 2022, 09:07 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Jean, the name I would use for those pamors shown in your post #9 would depend on who I was communicating with and what my feelings were at the time. The ways in which we determine how to name something like this depends upon many factors. That little phrase "name game" gets bandied about fairly frequently, but not many people understand the rules of the game. I think most Javanese people do understand. Instinctively. Rule #1:- chose a name that you feel --- note FEEL, not believe or link to reason, FEEL --- will be understood by, and will not create a negative reaction from the person you are dealing with. When we understand the keris and the society it comes from, we see pretty clearly that we need to create some degree of harmony in order to get anything from any discussion. Empu Suparman's approach to naming a pamor was to try to understand what it was that the maker tried to create. But he did not necessarily try to get anybody else to agree with him. If he thought that the maker might have been trying to create, say, ujung gunung, and the other party thought perhaps it was adeg gone bad, there would be no dispute. No dispute, but simply a statement of opinion. HOWEVER, and it is a big "however" the hierarchical position of the other party automatically dictated the name to be used during that interaction. Where a person did not wish to use his hierarchical position he simply gave no commitment to any one name. After all, the more names, the better. Basic Javanese societal guideline.

19th February 2022, 09:13 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you for your reply Alan, and it demonstrates the huge gap between the traditional Javanese and Westerner's way of thinking and communicating (no commitment), but this is changing quickly I think due to the foreign influences.

19th February 2022, 10:17 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Yes Jean, change is a constant, it affects us all. With Javanese values there might be changes, true, but the way it seems to work in Jawa is that new ideas, new ways, new understandings can come into the society, but those new things get assimilated and become something that is then uniquely Javanese. There is something that a lot of people fail to realise, and it is the deep effect that the hierarchical way of thought alters everything that is subjected to that paradigm. However, this structuring of all things into a ranked order weakens the further one moves from the cultural center of Jawa. We must not think of Jakarta, Surabaya and other major cities as subject to the same interwoven threads of hierarchy that applies in Central Jawa, especially so outside of the commercial heart of the cities. One thing that is so deeply ingrained into traditional Javanese thought is that one must always give the questioner the response that one believes, or feels, that the questioner expects. When the respondent to a question is hierarchically placed at a lower level than the questioner, then it becomes imperative to give a response that is in agreement with what one feels the questioner wishes to hear. Now, consider that cultural trait for a moment when we try to assess the accuracy, or truth of any response that we might receive to any question, if we are an outsider , moreover, an outsider whom many within Javanese society will place hierarchically above themselves. So, if I chose to reply to your question about the name I would place on those pamors you enquired about, AND I had my Javanese hat on, I would either agree with you, or vary my agreement so slightly that variation would be hardly noticeable. In fact, the name that we choose to place on any pamor is totally unimportant. Totally. Totally. Totally. What is important is firstly to understand how the pamor was made, and equally important but from a different perspective, how we can read the talismanic qualities of the pamor by understanding what the motif is intended to convey. As for accurate answers to questions, well, that depends very much upon the situation. A son might might get accurate answers from his father. A student might get accurate answers from his teacher, but if the father and the teacher are behaving in accordance with Javanese standards, the accuracy of the answer will be qualified by what he feels the student is able to understand. To my mind, the only way to truly come to an understanding of the keris, is first to come to an understanding of the society that gave it birth. If we do not at least try to do that, then we are no more than stamp collectors.

19th February 2022, 08:20 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	My thoughts run pretty much the same way as yours, David. But I know at least one very knowledgeable person in Solo who would initially give that as junjung derajad, however if I were to then call it unjung gunung, it would continue to be called ujung gunung during our conversation. So does that mean the Solo person & I would be in agreement? No, not at all. All it would mean is that I'm a wee bit higher up the ladder.