Ujung Gunung pamor and Combong

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, thank you very much for your post #13.

This demonstrates very nicely exactly what I was commenting on in the first paragraph of my post #12.

Now, if we look at Milandro's post #8, we can see somebody or other's idea of the names applicable to several pamors, you have referred back to post #8 and used these names & illustrations to classify the pamor that David has shown in post #11.

David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo.

The established & reliable dealers in Solo would name it as either Ujung Gunung or Junjung Drajad (drajat).

I believe I might have a copy of the publication that Milandro has taken his picture from, but I forget what it is, and I do not have time to look for it.

However, a quick look at recent publications, "Keris Jawa" & "Ensiklopedi Keris", do have pictures of Ujung Gunung, Raja Abala Raja, & Junjung Drajad. I have copied and posted these pics into this post, and added a number to the left hand side of each picture.

1 --- Ensiklopedi Keris
2 --- Ensiklopedi Keris
3 --- Keris Jawa
4 --- Keris Jawa

When we give an opinion on the classification of anything to do with a keris, it is always a very good idea to support that opinion by giving a reference to the place, time, & possibly person that has enabled us to provide that classification.

Incidentally, I have never heard anybody mention Pamor Raja Abala Raja in Solo, I have seen only one example of this pamor and that was in Malang East Jawa some time prior to 1998, this example was almost exactly as shown in EK, that is with motif elements overlaying each other. I forget what the seller named it as, but I doubt that it was Raja Abala Raja, if it has been I would have remembered that name because it was so unusual. It was probably a Kamardikan.

Just one tiny further comment, it might not be a particularly wise idea to use keris information sourced from online searches to validate anything at all to do with keris. Of course, this comment of mine automatically includes this Forum of ours, and I believe many contributors to this forum would agree that even here we need good, solid background knowledge to sort the wheat from the chaff.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo.

It appears that Alan and i were composing responses at the same time and he has outed himself as my source of identification. Yes Alan, my keris did indeed come from you and it is good to know that you would would still classify this pamor in the same manner.
As to the age of this keris, you were not specific at the time, but i had always assumed it was 20th century, but likely pre-WWII. Though it was acquired for reasons that were not specific to age.

[A. G. Maisey]

All that figures David.

I don't like to get specific about things unless I'm close enough to certain to be able support my opinion.

[Jean]

It seems that the pamor pics shown by Milandro basically originate from the book "Pamor Keris" written by Bambang Harsinuksmo and first published in 1985, although B.H differentiates between pamor RAR and PAP. I attach the pages related to these styles of pamor patterns, and it translates approximately as follows: "As a difference (between pamor Ujung Gunung, Junjung Derajat, Raja Abala Raja, and Pandito Bolo Pandito), for pamor Ujung Gunung the base of the angled lines start from the edges of the blade. Pamor Raja Abala Raja is similar to Ujung Gunung, but the angled lines which join together start from several places, from the sor-soran, the middle and the tip of the blade. For pamor Pandito Bolo Pandito, the tip of the the angled lines are all joining together at the tip of the blade".
This being said, David, I am not trying to convince you about the ID of the pamor pattern of your blade, I had great difficulties to identify mine, and as said by Alan, the pamor names may be different in Solo than in Yogya or East Java. Pamor Pandito Bolo Pendito is not mentioned in the EK nor book Keris Jawa for instance.

[milandro]

I didn’t get it anywhere else than on this very forum, I used the search engine for this type of pamor there was a discussion, there, there was the address which I used in the link to the image

as an extra contribution to this thread (which shows how academic these things may go) , I’ve bought another keris with a SIMILAR ( but not identic) pamor.

For you to study

This is in a Bugis handle and Sarong

[Jean]

Originally Posted by milandro

I didn’t get it anywhere else than on this very forum, I used the search engine for this type of pamor there was a discussion, there, there was the address which I used in the link to the image

as an extra contribution to this thread (which shows how academic these things may go) , I’ve bought another keris with a SIMILAR ( but not identic) pamor.

For you to study

This is in a Bugis handle and Sarong

This pamor pattern looks rather Adeg Lima or Adeg Tiga/ Teja Kinurung Wengkon IMO Not a Bugis blade BTW.

[milandro]

Thank you Jean, I doubt that I would even find my way to interpret all the different pamors, especially when they ( to my superficial ey and , for the time being, mind) appear to be so similar.

Even the use of reference books is relative after all since the books were written by humans they wrote about their view but other people may have written about other views too ( whether they did or not). In other words, according to whom? is a very good question.

Besides the interpretation of the pattern, also the one of the magical powers are subjet to considerable variations... I read them on line but the authors themselves sometimes offer different meaning for one pamor.

Remains fascinating.

In my unlearned opinion there seems to be a certain way to read these things which is not unlike what happens to synesthesia, this is phenomenon concerning cross sensorial perceptional things, people see a number or a word or hear a sound and see it as a color, this is a personal thing, the same word, sound or number may be two different colors to different people.

Of course there is a tradition but as we know, any tradition is made of consensus and many more disagreements. Having established a “ canon” doesn’t necessarily mean that that “ canon” is the only possible one, it is only the fruit of the majority or of the dominant interpretation.

[A. G. Maisey]

So Jean, in 1985 Harsrinuksmo publishes these drawings, and 2004(?) in EK he publishes the drawings that I posted.

A comparison between both sets of drawing might be educational.

Harsrinuksmo worked with Lumintu. Who actually produced the drawings?

To try to demonstrate that one representation is more correct than any other is just too silly for words --- I know you are not trying to do this --- but here we have varying representations of a very scarce pamor that I might have met with once in my lifetime, in spite of the fact that each time I went to Indonesia prior to 2015 I saw & handled several thousand keris. I cannot help but wonder if anybody is at all certain about this particular pamor.

Haryoguritno lists it, but I don't think he illustrates it.

The simple bare fact is this:- there is a great deal about keris "knowledge" that is not knowledge at all, it is belief, and that belief can be limited to a very small number of people in a single location.

RAR appears to be a rather difficult pamor to make, if the illustration in EK can be taken as accurate it is not something that is produced with a single billet manipulated in just a couple of operations, if EK is correct it is produced by preparing a number of small motifs which are then overlaid, more or less as a montage, one upon the other.


Yep, this new example is an adeg pamor, some people might call it Adeg Lima --- or adeg + some other number --- but then some other people believe that once an Adeg pamor exceeds three upright strands, that adeg pamor becomes Adeg Sapu, adeg = upright, sapu = broom.

Nothing with keris is carved in stone.

Just one little thing that we need to remember when we are dealing with the contents of EK & KJ. The author of EK was a journalist with an interest in keris who drew heavily upon the Jogja belief systems where Javanese keris are concerned, this of course was inevitable because his principal source of information was Lumintu. The author of KJ was primarily a collector with a very great deal of his wealth invested in keris, we might wonder just how many of his elite keris are still in his possession.

My own perspective is that very, very few keris publications that have been produced in Indonesia have been produced solely for the purpose of spreading knowledge.

I know of only one small, limited publication that is totally untainted by obscure objectives and that provides pure, accurate information on the Javanese Keris, and that is the exhibition guide book that was written by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom in the 1970's:- "The world of the Javanese Keris".

With every other publication we need a very high level of knowledge and a very cautious approach, as well as the ability to read Bahasa Indonesia very well, to extract much of worth from the plethora of Indonesian keris publications that has been produced.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So Jean, in 1985 Harsrinuksmo publishes these drawings, and 2004(?) in EK he publishes the drawings that I posted.

A comparison between both sets of drawing might be educational.

Harsrinuksmo worked with Lumintu. Who actually produced the drawings?

To try to demonstrate that one representation is more correct than any other is just too silly for words --- I know you are not trying to do this --- but here we have varying representations of a very scarce pamor that I might have met with once in my lifetime, in spite of the fact that each time I went to Indonesia prior to 2015 I saw & handled several thousand keris. I cannot help but wonder if anybody is at all certain about this particular pamor.

Haryoguritno lists it, but I don't think he illustrates it.

The simple bare fact is this:- there is a great deal about keris "knowledge" that is not knowledge at all, it is belief, and that belief can be limited to a very small number of people in a single location.

RAR appears to be a rather difficult pamor to make, if the illustration in EK can be taken as accurate it is not something that is produced with a single billet manipulated in just a couple of operations, if EK is correct it is produced by preparing a number of small motifs which are then overlaid, more or less as a montage, one upon the other.


Yep, this new example is an adeg pamor, some people might call it Adeg Lima --- or adeg + some other number --- but then some other people believe that once an Adeg pamor exceeds three upright strands, that adeg pamor becomes Adeg Sapu, adeg = upright, sapu = broom.

Nothing with keris is carved in stone.

Just one little thing that we need to remember when we are dealing with the contents of EK & KJ. The author of EK was a journalist with an interest in keris who drew heavily upon the Jogja belief systems where Javanese keris are concerned, this of course was inevitable because his principal source of information was Lumintu. The author of KJ was primarily a collector with a very great deal of his wealth invested in keris, we might wonder just how many of his elite keris are still in his possession.

My own perspective is that very, very few keris publications that have been produced in Indonesia have been produced solely for the purpose of spreading knowledge.

I know of only one small, limited publication that is totally untainted by obscure objectives and that provides pure, accurate information on the Javanese Keris, and that is the exhibition guide book that was written by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom in the 1970's:- "The world of the Javanese Keris".

With every other publication we need a very high level of knowledge and a very cautious approach, as well as the ability to read Bahasa Indonesia very well, to extract much of worth from the plethora of Indonesian keris publications that has been produced.

Thank you Alan and I agree with you. May I know which pamor pattern would you attribute to the 2 blades which I have shown on the pics of post #9?