Ujung Gunung pamor and Combong

[milandro]

I didn’t get it anywhere else than on this very forum, I used the search engine for this type of pamor there was a discussion, there, there was the address which I used in the link to the image

as an extra contribution to this thread (which shows how academic these things may go) , I’ve bought another keris with a SIMILAR ( but not identic) pamor.

For you to study

This is in a Bugis handle and Sarong

[Jean]

Originally Posted by milandro

I didn’t get it anywhere else than on this very forum, I used the search engine for this type of pamor there was a discussion, there, there was the address which I used in the link to the image

as an extra contribution to this thread (which shows how academic these things may go) , I’ve bought another keris with a SIMILAR ( but not identic) pamor.

For you to study

This is in a Bugis handle and Sarong

This pamor pattern looks rather Adeg Lima or Adeg Tiga/ Teja Kinurung Wengkon IMO Not a Bugis blade BTW.

[milandro]

Thank you Jean, I doubt that I would even find my way to interpret all the different pamors, especially when they ( to my superficial ey and , for the time being, mind) appear to be so similar.

Even the use of reference books is relative after all since the books were written by humans they wrote about their view but other people may have written about other views too ( whether they did or not). In other words, according to whom? is a very good question.

Besides the interpretation of the pattern, also the one of the magical powers are subjet to considerable variations... I read them on line but the authors themselves sometimes offer different meaning for one pamor.

Remains fascinating.

In my unlearned opinion there seems to be a certain way to read these things which is not unlike what happens to synesthesia, this is phenomenon concerning cross sensorial perceptional things, people see a number or a word or hear a sound and see it as a color, this is a personal thing, the same word, sound or number may be two different colors to different people.

Of course there is a tradition but as we know, any tradition is made of consensus and many more disagreements. Having established a “ canon” doesn’t necessarily mean that that “ canon” is the only possible one, it is only the fruit of the majority or of the dominant interpretation.

[A. G. Maisey]

So Jean, in 1985 Harsrinuksmo publishes these drawings, and 2004(?) in EK he publishes the drawings that I posted.

A comparison between both sets of drawing might be educational.

Harsrinuksmo worked with Lumintu. Who actually produced the drawings?

To try to demonstrate that one representation is more correct than any other is just too silly for words --- I know you are not trying to do this --- but here we have varying representations of a very scarce pamor that I might have met with once in my lifetime, in spite of the fact that each time I went to Indonesia prior to 2015 I saw & handled several thousand keris. I cannot help but wonder if anybody is at all certain about this particular pamor.

Haryoguritno lists it, but I don't think he illustrates it.

The simple bare fact is this:- there is a great deal about keris "knowledge" that is not knowledge at all, it is belief, and that belief can be limited to a very small number of people in a single location.

RAR appears to be a rather difficult pamor to make, if the illustration in EK can be taken as accurate it is not something that is produced with a single billet manipulated in just a couple of operations, if EK is correct it is produced by preparing a number of small motifs which are then overlaid, more or less as a montage, one upon the other.


Yep, this new example is an adeg pamor, some people might call it Adeg Lima --- or adeg + some other number --- but then some other people believe that once an Adeg pamor exceeds three upright strands, that adeg pamor becomes Adeg Sapu, adeg = upright, sapu = broom.

Nothing with keris is carved in stone.

Just one little thing that we need to remember when we are dealing with the contents of EK & KJ. The author of EK was a journalist with an interest in keris who drew heavily upon the Jogja belief systems where Javanese keris are concerned, this of course was inevitable because his principal source of information was Lumintu. The author of KJ was primarily a collector with a very great deal of his wealth invested in keris, we might wonder just how many of his elite keris are still in his possession.

My own perspective is that very, very few keris publications that have been produced in Indonesia have been produced solely for the purpose of spreading knowledge.

I know of only one small, limited publication that is totally untainted by obscure objectives and that provides pure, accurate information on the Javanese Keris, and that is the exhibition guide book that was written by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom in the 1970's:- "The world of the Javanese Keris".

With every other publication we need a very high level of knowledge and a very cautious approach, as well as the ability to read Bahasa Indonesia very well, to extract much of worth from the plethora of Indonesian keris publications that has been produced.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So Jean, in 1985 Harsrinuksmo publishes these drawings, and 2004(?) in EK he publishes the drawings that I posted.

A comparison between both sets of drawing might be educational.

Harsrinuksmo worked with Lumintu. Who actually produced the drawings?

To try to demonstrate that one representation is more correct than any other is just too silly for words --- I know you are not trying to do this --- but here we have varying representations of a very scarce pamor that I might have met with once in my lifetime, in spite of the fact that each time I went to Indonesia prior to 2015 I saw & handled several thousand keris. I cannot help but wonder if anybody is at all certain about this particular pamor.

Haryoguritno lists it, but I don't think he illustrates it.

The simple bare fact is this:- there is a great deal about keris "knowledge" that is not knowledge at all, it is belief, and that belief can be limited to a very small number of people in a single location.

RAR appears to be a rather difficult pamor to make, if the illustration in EK can be taken as accurate it is not something that is produced with a single billet manipulated in just a couple of operations, if EK is correct it is produced by preparing a number of small motifs which are then overlaid, more or less as a montage, one upon the other.


Yep, this new example is an adeg pamor, some people might call it Adeg Lima --- or adeg + some other number --- but then some other people believe that once an Adeg pamor exceeds three upright strands, that adeg pamor becomes Adeg Sapu, adeg = upright, sapu = broom.

Nothing with keris is carved in stone.

Just one little thing that we need to remember when we are dealing with the contents of EK & KJ. The author of EK was a journalist with an interest in keris who drew heavily upon the Jogja belief systems where Javanese keris are concerned, this of course was inevitable because his principal source of information was Lumintu. The author of KJ was primarily a collector with a very great deal of his wealth invested in keris, we might wonder just how many of his elite keris are still in his possession.

My own perspective is that very, very few keris publications that have been produced in Indonesia have been produced solely for the purpose of spreading knowledge.

I know of only one small, limited publication that is totally untainted by obscure objectives and that provides pure, accurate information on the Javanese Keris, and that is the exhibition guide book that was written by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom in the 1970's:- "The world of the Javanese Keris".

With every other publication we need a very high level of knowledge and a very cautious approach, as well as the ability to read Bahasa Indonesia very well, to extract much of worth from the plethora of Indonesian keris publications that has been produced.

Thank you Alan and I agree with you. May I know which pamor pattern would you attribute to the 2 blades which I have shown on the pics of post #9?

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, the name I would use for those pamors shown in your post #9 would depend on who I was communicating with and what my feelings were at the time.

The ways in which we determine how to name something like this depends upon many factors.


That little phrase "name game" gets bandied about fairly frequently, but not many people understand the rules of the game. I think most Javanese people do understand. Instinctively.

Rule #1:- chose a name that you feel --- note FEEL, not believe or link to reason, FEEL --- will be understood by, and will not create a negative reaction from the person you are dealing with.

When we understand the keris and the society it comes from, we see pretty clearly that we need to create some degree of harmony in order to get anything from any discussion.

Empu Suparman's approach to naming a pamor was to try to understand what it was that the maker tried to create. But he did not necessarily try to get anybody else to agree with him. If he thought that the maker might have been trying to create, say, ujung gunung, and the other party thought perhaps it was adeg gone bad, there would be no dispute. No dispute, but simply a statement of opinion.

HOWEVER, and it is a big "however" the hierarchical position of the other party automatically dictated the name to be used during that interaction.

Where a person did not wish to use his hierarchical position he simply gave no commitment to any one name.

After all, the more names, the better.

Basic Javanese societal guideline.

[Jean]

Thank you for your reply Alan, and it demonstrates the huge gap between the traditional Javanese and Westerner's way of thinking and communicating (no commitment), but this is changing quickly I think due to the foreign influences.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jean, change is a constant, it affects us all.

With Javanese values there might be changes, true, but the way it seems to work in Jawa is that new ideas, new ways, new understandings can come into the society, but those new things get assimilated and become something that is then uniquely Javanese.

There is something that a lot of people fail to realise, and it is the deep effect that the hierarchical way of thought alters everything that is subjected to that paradigm.

However, this structuring of all things into a ranked order weakens the further one moves from the cultural center of Jawa. We must not think of Jakarta, Surabaya and other major cities as subject to the same interwoven threads of hierarchy that applies in Central Jawa, especially so outside of the commercial heart of the cities.

One thing that is so deeply ingrained into traditional Javanese thought is that one must always give the questioner the response that one believes, or feels, that the questioner expects. When the respondent to a question is hierarchically placed at a lower level than the questioner, then it becomes imperative to give a response that is in agreement with what one feels the questioner wishes to hear.

Now, consider that cultural trait for a moment when we try to assess the accuracy, or truth of any response that we might receive to any question, if we are an outsider , moreover, an outsider whom many within Javanese society will place hierarchically above themselves.

So, if I chose to reply to your question about the name I would place on those pamors you enquired about, AND I had my Javanese hat on, I would either agree with you, or vary my agreement so slightly that variation would be hardly noticeable.

In fact, the name that we choose to place on any pamor is totally unimportant. Totally. Totally. Totally.

What is important is firstly to understand how the pamor was made, and equally important but from a different perspective, how we can read the talismanic qualities of the pamor by understanding what the motif is intended to convey.

As for accurate answers to questions, well, that depends very much upon the situation. A son might might get accurate answers from his father. A student might get accurate answers from his teacher, but if the father and the teacher are behaving in accordance with Javanese standards, the accuracy of the answer will be qualified by what he feels the student is able to understand.

To my mind, the only way to truly come to an understanding of the keris, is first to come to an understanding of the society that gave it birth.

If we do not at least try to do that, then we are no more than stamp collectors.

[David]

Please forgive the bad cellphone photos, but i didn't feel up to breaking out the real camera for this.
Here is one more example of this type of pamor, this time on an older keris in my collection that came in East Jawa dress.
I have always considered it Ujung Gunung though others might see this as Junjung Derajat or Raja Abala Raja i suppose.