Ujung Gunung pamor and Combong

[milandro]

I am aware of that and in fact I suggested the tongue in cheek “ old marketing” .

I have found a number of examples of modernly made krisses with similar forging features.

I understand that a western blacksmith would chuck the blade BUT an Indonesian empuh probably, beside not throwing away some work done, he probably thinks that the process is only partly in his hands and that he is rather the instruments of a superior being that through him creates the blade and maks it inhabited by a spirit and gives the blade its properties.

I am not trying to make this better than what it is (by the way I was very much thrilled to buy the blade) but when I visited the house (a temple really) of an old Indonesian man here in the NL with a couple of hundreds of krisses , a few were like this and he was telling me how important (to him) these things were.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

I understand that a western blacksmith would chuck the blade BUT an Indonesian empuh probably, beside not throwing away some work done, he probably thinks that the process is only partly in his hands and that he is rather the instruments of a superior being that through him creates the blade and maks it inhabited by a spirit and gives the blade its properties.

I am not trying to make this better than what it is (by the way I was very much thrilled to buy the blade) but when I visited the house (a temple really) of an old Indonesian man here in the NL with a couple of hundreds of krisses , a few were like this and he was telling me how important (to him) these things were.

Milandro, i believe you are absolutely correct about that. My comments were not intended to disregard your keris and i have been informed by sources i trust that indeed "Acts of God" are what are important a Javanese Muslim in this case. So when a mistake like this happens it can be seen as a mystic circumstance. I am not sure how many actual empus make accidental mistakes like this in their forging technique, but we should remember that most keris are not made by empus.

[jagabuwana]

If you're interested to know more about this blade, I think it may be worth seeing if this is a Tuban style keris. It has a low gandhik and shallow blumbangan, which are features that might support this classification.

One way of assessing this is by looking straight down onto the flat face of the gonjo, like shown here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=23

This post will give you an idea of what to look for: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=17

Of course these cues are visual only. My understanding is that opinions about a keris' classification can change when it is in the hand of someone experienced.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

If you're interested to know more about this blade, I think it may be worth seeing if this is a Tuban style keris. It has a low gandhik and shallow blumbangan, which are features that might support this classification.

Thanks! I certainly think it is a Tuban style Tanda Panah.

I am, very fond of this Keris. It certainly tickles the exoteric part of me.

I see that there are at least 3 different ways to be involved with these things (and many will be affected by one or more ) , one is the historical collector, the other is the technical collector and then the exoteric collector. Of course comninations and permutations are all possible.

Also geographic differences may influence practices an perceptions. I’ve read that many here favor wrapping in some sort of plastic and keep oiled krisses ( some also use gun oil).

I have had the fortune to visit a number of major collectors in the NL and none of them keeps krisses in plastic wrapped blades. This is probably because the practical technical part is kept way under the exoteric one. They firmly believe (only one of them is a originaly Indonesian person) they keris needs to breathe and that they need to greet the keris by touching (and some kissing ) the blade to their third eye location ( the thing would be impossible if wrapped in plastic).

Many different ways, I am not criticizing any (so if anyone feels this a critic please don’t because it is not my intention ), to each absolutely their own, There ae many ways and many opinions on everything.

[Jean]

IMO this is a recently made blade (end of 20th century) so the style should be rather identified as kamardikan or Tuban putran (replica) if you wish. Of course other opinions are welcome . Also the pamor pattern looks more like Raja Abala Raja (King of the Kings) rather than Ujung Gunung, but it is not perfectly executed (weld flaw).
Regarding the use of plastic wrap for preserving the blades, I also don't use it as it it not required ind a dry environment like in Europe and I keep my blades into their scabbards. The single occurrence of slight blade rusting which I experienced was because the scabbard was new and the wood not fully dry so the moisture affected the blade. I always carefully drench my blades with WD40 upon receipt and wipe the excess, and occasionally apply cendana oil for improving the smell if required.
Regards

[milandro]

thank you, according to the ex-owner (and Indonesian person who took them here when they immigrated) this kris arrived in the NL in the ’50, not that it makes a lot of difference



Raja Abala Raja is even nicer as I am reading of its magic attributions

[Jean]

I attach the pics of 2 blades with a pamor pattern tentatively identified as Raja Abala Raja (top) and Ujung Gunung (bottom) for reference and comments if any.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm going to throw a couple of comments into the ring. I do not wish to generate any sort of debate, but simply to assist general understandings.

Pamor names.


Pamor names vary from place to place and even from person to person.

Most of my own keris experience comes from Solo, and even within this local area I have found variation in names applied to pamor motifs. We might find that members of one group of people will use one interpretation of a motif, others will use a different interpretation and thus a different name.

Some people like to split the same pamor motif into a number of motif sub-groups, and those sub-groups might only be intelligible & accepted to a very limited number of people.

When we get to the group of people who undoubtedly have the greatest knowledge of keris and the deepest background in the keris sub-society, what I have found is that these people tend to group similar motifs into a single overall motif group that covers all similar motifs.

If an alternative name is suggested it becomes almost a matter of "call it what you will".

On the other hand, collectors in this same Javanese society will discuss for hours --- or longer --- what the "correct" name of a pamor motif should be. This "correct" name is frequently promoted without any knowledge at all of what name is used for the same motif a few hours away in, say, Malang, or even an hour down the road in Ngayogya.

So, correct?

Correct according to who?

In Solo some of the biggest & better known keris dealers have family ties that go back a couple of hundred years in the keris sub-society. They can be descended from famous m'ranggis or empus of the past, their fathers might have been m'ranggis or pande keris, their husbands might still be working as m'ranggis or pande keris. It is exactly as we find in Centini:- the market place is where we learn about keris. It is the dealers who hold the knowledge.

But the dealers do not debate with their customers, and they will not impart anything at all that is worth knowing to anybody who is not also a part of the dealer network.

My own principal tutor & mentor, Empu Suparman, was a keris dealer for many years before he became recognised as an empu. When we scrape below the surface we find that keris relationships in Central Jawa run like a hidden web just below the surface of the keris sub-society.

Keris care & preservation

It is a matter of record that I have for many years promoted the use of oil & plastic sleeves as a practical method of protecting keris.

I did not invent this method, I copied what I observed amongst keris dealers and other people in Solo who held large numbers of keris.

It is true that in Jawa & Bali people who have only one or a few keris will seldom use oil or plastic sleeves to protect a blade. Some people will smoke the blade over menyan on Thursday nights --- in Islamic belief Friday begins after sundown on Thursday, and in Islam, Friday is the Holy day. So this menyan ritual is something purely Islam, it is connected to Islam, rather than to historic keris ritual. But the ordinary people do not recognise this, Buddhists & Christians who might have a keris interest will still smoke their keris over menyan on Thursday after sundown.

This regular smoking of a blade helps to delay the onset of corrosion, and a light oiling and then a wipe down of the blade helps even more. But the storage of an oiled blade in an expensive & perhaps irreplaceable wrongko is usually avoided, the reason being that wood, being a cellulose based material will damage ferric material and oil will stain wood.

In Jawa during the wet season corrosion can begin to form within 24 hours.

So, as I said, I copied what I observed being done in Jawa. I used oil and plastic sleeves.

If one chooses not to use some form of protection for a blade , then at the very least the blade should be stored away from its expensive or valued dress wrongko and kept in a sandang walikat storage scabbard, in order to avoid damage, either by oil or by repeated handling, to the wrongko.

In less extreme climates than apply in SE Asia, we can get away with keeping a keris in its wrongko for a few years perhaps, but I have been gathering keris around me for 70 years now, I currently have somewhere between 300 & 400 keris and other edged weapons, that is not counting my pocket knives & belt knives & antique cutlery, then there are the old carbon steel hand tools that belonged to my father, his father, and my great-uncle, that I use in the normal course of benchwork & house repair --- the bits for a brace very quickly deteriorate if not kept in an oiled felt roll.

At times in the past I have had many more keris & edged weapons than I now have. I do not now, & did not ever in the past, have sufficient time to maintain a regular routine of maintenance. My objective has always been to prepare a keris correctly, and then to keep it in a way that will preserve it for those who come after me.

In 2012 I visited several large museums in Europe, several countries were involved. Before I arrived at these museums I had negotiated with the curators for permission to examine and photograph the keris which they held.

I will not comment in detail in respect of what I found, but I will give just one example.

At one very well known museum I had the opportunity to examine exactly the same keris that a well known keris writer had photographed for a reference work that he produced. One of the keris that he published a photograph of in his work, appears in perfect condition in his publication. When I got to examine it, a few years later, that beautiful keris was difficult to remove from its scabbard because corrosion was binding the blade to the scabbard, the scabbard itself needed repair.

The keris and a massive number of other historic weapons were stored higgledepigeldy in open boxes on open shelves. The storage room was constructed like an oversize bank safe, but it was guarding things that were slowly descending into a pile of rust & dust. I assume that the room was climate controlled, but since climate control costs money it might not have been.

I have worked with staff at a major Australian museum that has a few keris in storage. That museum is painfully modern. Ferric items, including keris, are stored out of scabbard on glass shelves in a strictly climate controlled environment. This is ideal storage, but I cannot afford this level of protection, so I use & advise oil & plastic sleeves.

Before I ever received any tuition from Empu Suparman I had been collecting & studying keris for around 30 years. Members of the weapon collector society in Australia and UK had often commented to me that they regarded it as their responsibility & duty to preserve the items that they held for coming generations.

When Empu Suparman began to teach me, he often repeated the same message:- I had a duty to repair, maintain & preserve any keris that I held for later generations. The "repair" duty that Pak Parman added was because he considered that as his continuation I had the knowledge to perform proper traditional repair where that was necessary. His attitude was that he was not just giving his knowledge to me, he was giving his knowledge to the other people whom I would advise & instruct, and thus assist in the preservation of a Javanese heritage.


People in Western societies who treasure the museum approach to keris are adopting a value system that is absolutely contrary to the value system of the originating society. This "do as little as possible" approach is regarded as insulting to the keris, insulting to the people who have previously had it in their care, and most of all, insulting to the maker & his memory.


People who are not immersed in Javanese keris culture observe and sometimes try to follow what they see, or at least, what they believe they see, but they seldom understand the reasons behind what they think they see, and often confuse the way in what they think they see being performed.

When we raise a keris alongside our temple we are paying respect to the memory of the maker of that keris, and to those who have had the keris in their care before us.

Some people will believe that they are paying respect to the isi of the keris, but when we see people paying respect to a keris that by its very nature cannot possibly have any isi, then we recognise the depth of ignorance that can exist, even amongst those who fervently believe that they are behaving correctly.

As I wrote at the beginning of this rather lengthy comment:- I am not up for debate. Accept or reject my comments. I offer these comments in the spirit of homage to those who have taught me.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

IMO this is a recently made blade (end of 20th century) so the style should be rather identified as kamardikan or Tuban putran (replica) if you wish. Of course other opinions are welcome . Also the pamor pattern looks more like Raja Abala Raja (King of the Kings) rather than Ujung Gunung, but it is not perfectly executed (weld flaw).

Milandro, I am rather inclined to agree with Jean that while your blade might well conform to Tuban standards, it is not likely to be an old Tuban blade. Seems 20th century you me as well.
As to the pamor, identification is not really my strong point when comparing very similar pamor patterns, but i certainly would not have argued with your Ujung Gunung identification. Here is one of mine for comparison that has been identified as Ujung Gunung by a very reliable source.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Milandro, I am rather inclined to agree with Jean that while your blade might well conform to Tuban standards, it is not likely to be an old Tuban blade. Seems 20th century you me as well.
As to the pamor, identification is not really my strong point when comparing very similar pamor patterns, but i certainly would not have argued with your Ujung Gunung identification. Here is one of mine for comparison that has been identified as Ujung Gunung by a very reliable source.

Hello David,
I would also identify the pamor pattern of your blade as rather Raja Abala Raja or Pendita Bala Pendita than Ujung Gunung. As shown in post #8 from Milandro, the triangular motifs of pamor Ujung Gunung are starting from the sides of the blade, while for pamor RAR and PAP they mainly start from the base of the blade.
However if you search "pamor Ujung Gunung" and "pamor Raja Abala Raja" on Google and see the pics, you will get totally confused, so pamor Ujung Gunung may be correctly attributed for your blade...
BTW your blade looks recent also but well made.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

I am, very fond of this Keris. It certainly tickles the exoteric part of me.

Milandro, i realize that English may not be you first language. I believe the word you are looking for here is esoteric. This refers to things that are likely to be intended for or understood by a small number of people with a specialized interest.
Exoteric means the opposite.Things intended for or understood by the general public.
Things that are mystical or magickal in nature are usually considered esoteric.