Ujung Gunung pamor and Combong

milandro · 13th February 2022, 01:13 PM

I came across one of these krisses and I was lucky to buy it for an affordable price. I do realize that this king of pamor often may result in a vertical split within the layers and that the Indonesian tradition is that this attributes magical powers to the blade (perhaps an early form of good marketing

).

Nevertheless I found it very charming and decided to acquire it. I Think this may have been a blade made in Madura, probably something arrived in the NL somewhere around the ’50.

David · 14th February 2022, 02:56 PM

I have seen keris that have slots or holes in the blade that were obviously pre-determined and intentional. I do understand that weld failures like what caused the slot in your blade are often accepted as “combong” by many collectors, but that does seem to be more a marketing ploy than anything else, attempting to turn a bad forging into something magickal and desirable.

milandro · 14th February 2022, 03:06 PM

I am aware of that and in fact I suggested the tongue in cheek “ old marketing” .

I have found a number of examples of modernly made krisses with similar forging features.

I understand that a western blacksmith would chuck the blade BUT an Indonesian empuh probably, beside not throwing away some work done, he probably thinks that the process is only partly in his hands and that he is rather the instruments of a superior being that through him creates the blade and maks it inhabited by a spirit and gives the blade its properties.

I am not trying to make this better than what it is (by the way I was very much thrilled to buy the blade) but when I visited the house (a temple really) of an old Indonesian man here in the NL with a couple of hundreds of krisses , a few were like this and he was telling me how important (to him) these things were.

David · 15th February 2022, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I understand that a western blacksmith would chuck the blade BUT an Indonesian empuh probably, beside not throwing away some work done, he probably thinks that the process is only partly in his hands and that he is rather the instruments of a superior being that through him creates the blade and maks it inhabited by a spirit and gives the blade its properties.

I am not trying to make this better than what it is (by the way I was very much thrilled to buy the blade) but when I visited the house (a temple really) of an old Indonesian man here in the NL with a couple of hundreds of krisses , a few were like this and he was telling me how important (to him) these things were.

Milandro, i believe you are absolutely correct about that. My comments were not intended to disregard your keris and i have been informed by sources i trust that indeed "Acts of God" are what are important a Javanese Muslim in this case. So when a mistake like this happens it can be seen as a mystic circumstance. I am not sure how many actual empus make accidental mistakes like this in their forging technique, but we should remember that most keris are not made by empus.

jagabuwana · 16th February 2022, 01:59 AM

If you're interested to know more about this blade, I think it may be worth seeing if this is a Tuban style keris. It has a low gandhik and shallow blumbangan, which are features that might support this classification.

One way of assessing this is by looking straight down onto the flat face of the gonjo, like shown here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=23

This post will give you an idea of what to look for: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=17

Of course these cues are visual only. My understanding is that opinions about a keris' classification can change when it is in the hand of someone experienced.

milandro · 16th February 2022, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

If you're interested to know more about this blade, I think it may be worth seeing if this is a Tuban style keris. It has a low gandhik and shallow blumbangan, which are features that might support this classification.

Thanks! I certainly think it is a Tuban style Tanda Panah.

I am, very fond of this Keris. It certainly tickles the exoteric part of me.

I see that there are at least 3 different ways to be involved with these things (and many will be affected by one or more ) , one is the historical collector, the other is the technical collector and then the exoteric collector. Of course comninations and permutations are all possible.

Also geographic differences may influence practices an perceptions. I’ve read that many here favor wrapping in some sort of plastic and keep oiled krisses ( some also use gun oil).

I have had the fortune to visit a number of major collectors in the NL and none of them keeps krisses in plastic wrapped blades. This is probably because the practical technical part is kept way under the exoteric one. They firmly believe (only one of them is a originaly Indonesian person) they keris needs to breathe and that they need to greet the keris by touching (and some kissing ) the blade to their third eye location ( the thing would be impossible if wrapped in plastic).

Many different ways, I am not criticizing any (so if anyone feels this a critic please don’t because it is not my intention ), to each absolutely their own, There ae many ways and many opinions on everything.

Jean · 16th February 2022, 12:11 PM

IMO this is a recently made blade (end of 20th century) so the style should be rather identified as kamardikan or Tuban putran (replica) if you wish. Of course other opinions are welcome

. Also the pamor pattern looks more like Raja Abala Raja (King of the Kings) rather than Ujung Gunung, but it is not perfectly executed (weld flaw).
Regarding the use of plastic wrap for preserving the blades, I also don't use it as it it not required ind a dry environment like in Europe and I keep my blades into their scabbards. The single occurrence of slight blade rusting which I experienced was because the scabbard was new and the wood not fully dry so the moisture affected the blade. I always carefully drench my blades with WD40 upon receipt and wipe the excess, and occasionally apply cendana oil for improving the smell if required.
Regards

milandro · 16th February 2022, 12:20 PM

thank you, according to the ex-owner (and Indonesian person who took them here when they immigrated) this kris arrived in the NL in the ’50, not that it makes a lot of difference

Raja Abala Raja is even nicer as I am reading of its magic attributions

Jean · 16th February 2022, 12:22 PM

I attach the pics of 2 blades with a pamor pattern tentatively identified as Raja Abala Raja (top) and Ujung Gunung (bottom) for reference and comments if any.
Regards

David · 16th February 2022, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I am, very fond of this Keris. It certainly tickles the exoteric part of me.

Milandro, i realize that English may not be you first language. I believe the word you are looking for here is esoteric. This refers to things that are likely to be intended for or understood by a small number of people with a specialized interest.
Exoteric means the opposite.Things intended for or understood by the general public.
Things that are mystical or magickal in nature are usually considered esoteric.

David · 16th February 2022, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

IMO this is a recently made blade (end of 20th century) so the style should be rather identified as kamardikan or Tuban putran (replica) if you wish. Of course other opinions are welcome

. Also the pamor pattern looks more like Raja Abala Raja (King of the Kings) rather than Ujung Gunung, but it is not perfectly executed (weld flaw).

Milandro, I am rather inclined to agree with Jean that while your blade might well conform to Tuban standards, it is not likely to be an old Tuban blade. Seems 20th century you me as well.
As to the pamor, identification is not really my strong point when comparing very similar pamor patterns, but i certainly would not have argued with your Ujung Gunung identification. Here is one of mine for comparison that has been identified as Ujung Gunung by a very reliable source.

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2022, 11:34 PM

I'm going to throw a couple of comments into the ring. I do not wish to generate any sort of debate, but simply to assist general understandings.

Pamor names.

Pamor names vary from place to place and even from person to person.

Most of my own keris experience comes from Solo, and even within this local area I have found variation in names applied to pamor motifs. We might find that members of one group of people will use one interpretation of a motif, others will use a different interpretation and thus a different name.

Some people like to split the same pamor motif into a number of motif sub-groups, and those sub-groups might only be intelligible & accepted to a very limited number of people.

When we get to the group of people who undoubtedly have the greatest knowledge of keris and the deepest background in the keris sub-society, what I have found is that these people tend to group similar motifs into a single overall motif group that covers all similar motifs.

If an alternative name is suggested it becomes almost a matter of "call it what you will".

On the other hand, collectors in this same Javanese society will discuss for hours --- or longer --- what the "correct" name of a pamor motif should be. This "correct" name is frequently promoted without any knowledge at all of what name is used for the same motif a few hours away in, say, Malang, or even an hour down the road in Ngayogya.

So, correct?

Correct according to who?

In Solo some of the biggest & better known keris dealers have family ties that go back a couple of hundred years in the keris sub-society. They can be descended from famous m'ranggis or empus of the past, their fathers might have been m'ranggis or pande keris, their husbands might still be working as m'ranggis or pande keris. It is exactly as we find in Centini:- the market place is where we learn about keris. It is the dealers who hold the knowledge.

But the dealers do not debate with their customers, and they will not impart anything at all that is worth knowing to anybody who is not also a part of the dealer network.

My own principal tutor & mentor, Empu Suparman, was a keris dealer for many years before he became recognised as an empu. When we scrape below the surface we find that keris relationships in Central Jawa run like a hidden web just below the surface of the keris sub-society.

Keris care & preservation

It is a matter of record that I have for many years promoted the use of oil & plastic sleeves as a practical method of protecting keris.

I did not invent this method, I copied what I observed amongst keris dealers and other people in Solo who held large numbers of keris.

It is true that in Jawa & Bali people who have only one or a few keris will seldom use oil or plastic sleeves to protect a blade. Some people will smoke the blade over menyan on Thursday nights --- in Islamic belief Friday begins after sundown on Thursday, and in Islam, Friday is the Holy day. So this menyan ritual is something purely Islam, it is connected to Islam, rather than to historic keris ritual. But the ordinary people do not recognise this, Buddhists & Christians who might have a keris interest will still smoke their keris over menyan on Thursday after sundown.

This regular smoking of a blade helps to delay the onset of corrosion, and a light oiling and then a wipe down of the blade helps even more. But the storage of an oiled blade in an expensive & perhaps irreplaceable wrongko is usually avoided, the reason being that wood, being a cellulose based material will damage ferric material and oil will stain wood.

In Jawa during the wet season corrosion can begin to form within 24 hours.

So, as I said, I copied what I observed being done in Jawa. I used oil and plastic sleeves.

If one chooses not to use some form of protection for a blade , then at the very least the blade should be stored away from its expensive or valued dress wrongko and kept in a sandang walikat storage scabbard, in order to avoid damage, either by oil or by repeated handling, to the wrongko.

In less extreme climates than apply in SE Asia, we can get away with keeping a keris in its wrongko for a few years perhaps, but I have been gathering keris around me for 70 years now, I currently have somewhere between 300 & 400 keris and other edged weapons, that is not counting my pocket knives & belt knives & antique cutlery, then there are the old carbon steel hand tools that belonged to my father, his father, and my great-uncle, that I use in the normal course of benchwork & house repair --- the bits for a brace very quickly deteriorate if not kept in an oiled felt roll.

At times in the past I have had many more keris & edged weapons than I now have. I do not now, & did not ever in the past, have sufficient time to maintain a regular routine of maintenance. My objective has always been to prepare a keris correctly, and then to keep it in a way that will preserve it for those who come after me.

In 2012 I visited several large museums in Europe, several countries were involved. Before I arrived at these museums I had negotiated with the curators for permission to examine and photograph the keris which they held.

I will not comment in detail in respect of what I found, but I will give just one example.

At one very well known museum I had the opportunity to examine exactly the same keris that a well known keris writer had photographed for a reference work that he produced. One of the keris that he published a photograph of in his work, appears in perfect condition in his publication. When I got to examine it, a few years later, that beautiful keris was difficult to remove from its scabbard because corrosion was binding the blade to the scabbard, the scabbard itself needed repair.

The keris and a massive number of other historic weapons were stored higgledepigeldy in open boxes on open shelves. The storage room was constructed like an oversize bank safe, but it was guarding things that were slowly descending into a pile of rust & dust. I assume that the room was climate controlled, but since climate control costs money it might not have been.

I have worked with staff at a major Australian museum that has a few keris in storage. That museum is painfully modern. Ferric items, including keris, are stored out of scabbard on glass shelves in a strictly climate controlled environment. This is ideal storage, but I cannot afford this level of protection, so I use & advise oil & plastic sleeves.

Before I ever received any tuition from Empu Suparman I had been collecting & studying keris for around 30 years. Members of the weapon collector society in Australia and UK had often commented to me that they regarded it as their responsibility & duty to preserve the items that they held for coming generations.

When Empu Suparman began to teach me, he often repeated the same message:- I had a duty to repair, maintain & preserve any keris that I held for later generations. The "repair" duty that Pak Parman added was because he considered that as his continuation I had the knowledge to perform proper traditional repair where that was necessary. His attitude was that he was not just giving his knowledge to me, he was giving his knowledge to the other people whom I would advise & instruct, and thus assist in the preservation of a Javanese heritage.

People in Western societies who treasure the museum approach to keris are adopting a value system that is absolutely contrary to the value system of the originating society. This "do as little as possible" approach is regarded as insulting to the keris, insulting to the people who have previously had it in their care, and most of all, insulting to the maker & his memory.

People who are not immersed in Javanese keris culture observe and sometimes try to follow what they see, or at least, what they believe they see, but they seldom understand the reasons behind what they think they see, and often confuse the way in what they think they see being performed.

When we raise a keris alongside our temple we are paying respect to the memory of the maker of that keris, and to those who have had the keris in their care before us.

Some people will believe that they are paying respect to the isi of the keris, but when we see people paying respect to a keris that by its very nature cannot possibly have any isi, then we recognise the depth of ignorance that can exist, even amongst those who fervently believe that they are behaving correctly.

As I wrote at the beginning of this rather lengthy comment:- I am not up for debate. Accept or reject my comments. I offer these comments in the spirit of homage to those who have taught me.

Jean · 17th February 2022, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Milandro, I am rather inclined to agree with Jean that while your blade might well conform to Tuban standards, it is not likely to be an old Tuban blade. Seems 20th century you me as well.
As to the pamor, identification is not really my strong point when comparing very similar pamor patterns, but i certainly would not have argued with your Ujung Gunung identification. Here is one of mine for comparison that has been identified as Ujung Gunung by a very reliable source.

Hello David,
I would also identify the pamor pattern of your blade as rather Raja Abala Raja or Pendita Bala Pendita than Ujung Gunung. As shown in post #8 from Milandro, the triangular motifs of pamor Ujung Gunung are starting from the sides of the blade, while for pamor RAR and PAP they mainly start from the base of the blade.
However if you search "pamor Ujung Gunung" and "pamor Raja Abala Raja" on Google and see the pics, you will get totally confused, so pamor Ujung Gunung may be correctly attributed for your blade...
BTW your blade looks recent also but well made.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 17th February 2022, 10:56 PM

Jean, thank you very much for your post #13.

This demonstrates very nicely exactly what I was commenting on in the first paragraph of my post #12.

Now, if we look at Milandro's post #8, we can see somebody or other's idea of the names applicable to several pamors, you have referred back to post #8 and used these names & illustrations to classify the pamor that David has shown in post #11.

David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo.

The established & reliable dealers in Solo would name it as either Ujung Gunung or Junjung Drajad (drajat).

I believe I might have a copy of the publication that Milandro has taken his picture from, but I forget what it is, and I do not have time to look for it.

However, a quick look at recent publications, "Keris Jawa" & "Ensiklopedi Keris", do have pictures of Ujung Gunung, Raja Abala Raja, & Junjung Drajad. I have copied and posted these pics into this post, and added a number to the left hand side of each picture.

1 --- Ensiklopedi Keris
2 --- Ensiklopedi Keris
3 --- Keris Jawa
4 --- Keris Jawa

When we give an opinion on the classification of anything to do with a keris, it is always a very good idea to support that opinion by giving a reference to the place, time, & possibly person that has enabled us to provide that classification.

Incidentally, I have never heard anybody mention Pamor Raja Abala Raja in Solo, I have seen only one example of this pamor and that was in Malang East Jawa some time prior to 1998, this example was almost exactly as shown in EK, that is with motif elements overlaying each other. I forget what the seller named it as, but I doubt that it was Raja Abala Raja, if it has been I would have remembered that name because it was so unusual. It was probably a Kamardikan.

Just one tiny further comment, it might not be a particularly wise idea to use keris information sourced from online searches to validate anything at all to do with keris. Of course, this comment of mine automatically includes this Forum of ours, and I believe many contributors to this forum would agree that even here we need good, solid background knowledge to sort the wheat from the chaff.

David · 17th February 2022, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello David,
I would also identify the pamor pattern of your blade as rather Raja Abala Raja or Pendita Bala Pendita than Ujung Gunung. As shown in post #8 from Milandro, the triangular motifs of pamor Ujung Gunung are starting all over the blade, while for pamor RAR and PAP they start from the base of the blade.
However if you search "pamor Ujung Gunung" and "pamor Raja Abala Raja" on Google and see the pics, you will get totally confused, so pamor Ujung Gunung may be correctly attributed for your blade...
BTW your blade looks recent also but well made.
Regards

Thanks for your input Jean. Please don't take offense, but i wasn't really looking for conformation of the the identity of the pamor pattern of my blade. I was only providing it as an example of a pamor that looks similar to Milandro's blade that has also been identified as Ujung Gunung. When i wrote that my blade was identified as such by a very reliable source i meant it was a source which i trust above all others. That is not to say that my source is infallible, but believe i will continue to refer to the pamor on my blade as Ujung Gunung for the time being. One thing is for certain, this attribution was not obtained by googling "pamor Ujung Gunung" and "pamor Raja Abala Raja" and making online comparisons.

I did make note of the drawings presented by Milandro in post #8. The problem here is why should we consider these drawings to be accurate renderings of the manner in which these pamors are formed. Here, for instance, is another set of drawings that present pamor and dhapur. Please note the way Ujung Gunung is depicted on the left in this illustration showing that pamor. Now look at the other illustration i have posted showing someone else's idea of pamor Raja Abala Raja.This one certainly doesn't look like my keris, does it? It looks more like what is described in the illustration Milandro presented as Junjung Derajat.
Welcome to the Name Game.
As Alan questioned above. "So, correct? Correct according to who?".
Are there really any questions in the keris world that all the "experts" can ever truly agree on? In the end, you choose your experts and i'll choose mine.

David · 18th February 2022, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo.

It appears that Alan and i were composing responses at the same time and he has outed himself as my source of identification. Yes Alan, my keris did indeed come from you and it is good to know that you would would still classify this pamor in the same manner.
As to the age of this keris, you were not specific at the time, but i had always assumed it was 20th century, but likely pre-WWII. Though it was acquired for reasons that were not specific to age.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2022, 01:15 AM

All that figures David.

I don't like to get specific about things unless I'm close enough to certain to be able support my opinion.

Jean · 18th February 2022, 11:24 AM

It seems that the pamor pics shown by Milandro basically originate from the book "Pamor Keris" written by Bambang Harsinuksmo and first published in 1985, although B.H differentiates between pamor RAR and PAP. I attach the pages related to these styles of pamor patterns, and it translates approximately as follows: "As a difference (between pamor Ujung Gunung, Junjung Derajat, Raja Abala Raja, and Pandito Bolo Pandito), for pamor Ujung Gunung the base of the angled lines start from the edges of the blade. Pamor Raja Abala Raja is similar to Ujung Gunung, but the angled lines which join together start from several places, from the sor-soran, the middle and the tip of the blade. For pamor Pandito Bolo Pandito, the tip of the the angled lines are all joining together at the tip of the blade".
This being said, David, I am not trying to convince you about the ID of the pamor pattern of your blade, I had great difficulties to identify mine, and as said by Alan, the pamor names may be different in Solo than in Yogya or East Java. Pamor Pandito Bolo Pendito is not mentioned in the EK nor book Keris Jawa for instance.

milandro · 18th February 2022, 11:27 AM

I didn’t get it anywhere else than on this very forum, I used the search engine for this type of pamor there was a discussion, there, there was the address which I used in the link to the image

as an extra contribution to this thread (which shows how academic these things may go) , I’ve bought another keris with a SIMILAR ( but not identic) pamor.

For you to study

This is in a Bugis handle and Sarong

Jean · 18th February 2022, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I didn’t get it anywhere else than on this very forum, I used the search engine for this type of pamor there was a discussion, there, there was the address which I used in the link to the image

as an extra contribution to this thread (which shows how academic these things may go) , I’ve bought another keris with a SIMILAR ( but not identic) pamor.

For you to study

This is in a Bugis handle and Sarong

This pamor pattern looks rather Adeg Lima or Adeg Tiga/ Teja Kinurung Wengkon IMO

Not a Bugis blade BTW.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2022, 12:08 PM

So Jean, in 1985 Harsrinuksmo publishes these drawings, and 2004(?) in EK he publishes the drawings that I posted.

A comparison between both sets of drawing might be educational.

Harsrinuksmo worked with Lumintu. Who actually produced the drawings?

To try to demonstrate that one representation is more correct than any other is just too silly for words --- I know you are not trying to do this --- but here we have varying representations of a very scarce pamor that I might have met with once in my lifetime, in spite of the fact that each time I went to Indonesia prior to 2015 I saw & handled several thousand keris. I cannot help but wonder if anybody is at all certain about this particular pamor.

Haryoguritno lists it, but I don't think he illustrates it.

The simple bare fact is this:- there is a great deal about keris "knowledge" that is not knowledge at all, it is belief, and that belief can be limited to a very small number of people in a single location.

RAR appears to be a rather difficult pamor to make, if the illustration in EK can be taken as accurate it is not something that is produced with a single billet manipulated in just a couple of operations, if EK is correct it is produced by preparing a number of small motifs which are then overlaid, more or less as a montage, one upon the other.

Yep, this new example is an adeg pamor, some people might call it Adeg Lima --- or adeg + some other number --- but then some other people believe that once an Adeg pamor exceeds three upright strands, that adeg pamor becomes Adeg Sapu, adeg = upright, sapu = broom.

Nothing with keris is carved in stone.

Just one little thing that we need to remember when we are dealing with the contents of EK & KJ. The author of EK was a journalist with an interest in keris who drew heavily upon the Jogja belief systems where Javanese keris are concerned, this of course was inevitable because his principal source of information was Lumintu. The author of KJ was primarily a collector with a very great deal of his wealth invested in keris, we might wonder just how many of his elite keris are still in his possession.

My own perspective is that very, very few keris publications that have been produced in Indonesia have been produced solely for the purpose of spreading knowledge.

I know of only one small, limited publication that is totally untainted by obscure objectives and that provides pure, accurate information on the Javanese Keris, and that is the exhibition guide book that was written by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom in the 1970's:- "The world of the Javanese Keris".

With every other publication we need a very high level of knowledge and a very cautious approach, as well as the ability to read Bahasa Indonesia very well, to extract much of worth from the plethora of Indonesian keris publications that has been produced.

milandro · 18th February 2022, 12:18 PM

Thank you Jean, I doubt that I would even find my way to interpret all the different pamors, especially when they ( to my superficial ey and , for the time being, mind) appear to be so similar.

Even the use of reference books is relative after all since the books were written by humans they wrote about their view but other people may have written about other views too ( whether they did or not). In other words, according to whom? is a very good question.

Besides the interpretation of the pattern, also the one of the magical powers are subjet to considerable variations... I read them on line but the authors themselves sometimes offer different meaning for one pamor.

Remains fascinating.

In my unlearned opinion there seems to be a certain way to read these things which is not unlike what happens to synesthesia, this is phenomenon concerning cross sensorial perceptional things, people see a number or a word or hear a sound and see it as a color, this is a personal thing, the same word, sound or number may be two different colors to different people.

Of course there is a tradition but as we know, any tradition is made of consensus and many more disagreements. Having established a “ canon” doesn’t necessarily mean that that “ canon” is the only possible one, it is only the fruit of the majority or of the dominant interpretation.

Jean · 18th February 2022, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So Jean, in 1985 Harsrinuksmo publishes these drawings, and 2004(?) in EK he publishes the drawings that I posted.

A comparison between both sets of drawing might be educational.

Harsrinuksmo worked with Lumintu. Who actually produced the drawings?

To try to demonstrate that one representation is more correct than any other is just too silly for words --- I know you are not trying to do this --- but here we have varying representations of a very scarce pamor that I might have met with once in my lifetime, in spite of the fact that each time I went to Indonesia prior to 2015 I saw & handled several thousand keris. I cannot help but wonder if anybody is at all certain about this particular pamor.

Haryoguritno lists it, but I don't think he illustrates it.

The simple bare fact is this:- there is a great deal about keris "knowledge" that is not knowledge at all, it is belief, and that belief can be limited to a very small number of people in a single location.

RAR appears to be a rather difficult pamor to make, if the illustration in EK can be taken as accurate it is not something that is produced with a single billet manipulated in just a couple of operations, if EK is correct it is produced by preparing a number of small motifs which are then overlaid, more or less as a montage, one upon the other.

Yep, this new example is an adeg pamor, some people might call it Adeg Lima --- or adeg + some other number --- but then some other people believe that once an Adeg pamor exceeds three upright strands, that adeg pamor becomes Adeg Sapu, adeg = upright, sapu = broom.

Nothing with keris is carved in stone.

Just one little thing that we need to remember when we are dealing with the contents of EK & KJ. The author of EK was a journalist with an interest in keris who drew heavily upon the Jogja belief systems where Javanese keris are concerned, this of course was inevitable because his principal source of information was Lumintu. The author of KJ was primarily a collector with a very great deal of his wealth invested in keris, we might wonder just how many of his elite keris are still in his possession.

My own perspective is that very, very few keris publications that have been produced in Indonesia have been produced solely for the purpose of spreading knowledge.

I know of only one small, limited publication that is totally untainted by obscure objectives and that provides pure, accurate information on the Javanese Keris, and that is the exhibition guide book that was written by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom in the 1970's:- "The world of the Javanese Keris".

With every other publication we need a very high level of knowledge and a very cautious approach, as well as the ability to read Bahasa Indonesia very well, to extract much of worth from the plethora of Indonesian keris publications that has been produced.

Thank you Alan and I agree with you. May I know which pamor pattern would you attribute to the 2 blades which I have shown on the pics of post #9?

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2022, 10:07 PM

Jean, the name I would use for those pamors shown in your post #9 would depend on who I was communicating with and what my feelings were at the time.

The ways in which we determine how to name something like this depends upon many factors.

That little phrase "name game" gets bandied about fairly frequently, but not many people understand the rules of the game. I think most Javanese people do understand. Instinctively.

Rule #1:- chose a name that you feel --- note FEEL, not believe or link to reason, FEEL --- will be understood by, and will not create a negative reaction from the person you are dealing with.

When we understand the keris and the society it comes from, we see pretty clearly that we need to create some degree of harmony in order to get anything from any discussion.

Empu Suparman's approach to naming a pamor was to try to understand what it was that the maker tried to create. But he did not necessarily try to get anybody else to agree with him. If he thought that the maker might have been trying to create, say, ujung gunung, and the other party thought perhaps it was adeg gone bad, there would be no dispute. No dispute, but simply a statement of opinion.

HOWEVER, and it is a big "however" the hierarchical position of the other party automatically dictated the name to be used during that interaction.

Where a person did not wish to use his hierarchical position he simply gave no commitment to any one name.

After all, the more names, the better.

Basic Javanese societal guideline.

Jean · 19th February 2022, 10:13 AM

Thank you for your reply Alan, and it demonstrates the huge gap between the traditional Javanese and Westerner's way of thinking and communicating (no commitment), but this is changing quickly I think due to the foreign influences.

A. G. Maisey · 19th February 2022, 11:17 AM

Yes Jean, change is a constant, it affects us all.

With Javanese values there might be changes, true, but the way it seems to work in Jawa is that new ideas, new ways, new understandings can come into the society, but those new things get assimilated and become something that is then uniquely Javanese.

There is something that a lot of people fail to realise, and it is the deep effect that the hierarchical way of thought alters everything that is subjected to that paradigm.

However, this structuring of all things into a ranked order weakens the further one moves from the cultural center of Jawa. We must not think of Jakarta, Surabaya and other major cities as subject to the same interwoven threads of hierarchy that applies in Central Jawa, especially so outside of the commercial heart of the cities.

One thing that is so deeply ingrained into traditional Javanese thought is that one must always give the questioner the response that one believes, or feels, that the questioner expects. When the respondent to a question is hierarchically placed at a lower level than the questioner, then it becomes imperative to give a response that is in agreement with what one feels the questioner wishes to hear.

Now, consider that cultural trait for a moment when we try to assess the accuracy, or truth of any response that we might receive to any question, if we are an outsider , moreover, an outsider whom many within Javanese society will place hierarchically above themselves.

So, if I chose to reply to your question about the name I would place on those pamors you enquired about, AND I had my Javanese hat on, I would either agree with you, or vary my agreement so slightly that variation would be hardly noticeable.

In fact, the name that we choose to place on any pamor is totally unimportant. Totally. Totally. Totally.

What is important is firstly to understand how the pamor was made, and equally important but from a different perspective, how we can read the talismanic qualities of the pamor by understanding what the motif is intended to convey.

As for accurate answers to questions, well, that depends very much upon the situation. A son might might get accurate answers from his father. A student might get accurate answers from his teacher, but if the father and the teacher are behaving in accordance with Javanese standards, the accuracy of the answer will be qualified by what he feels the student is able to understand.

To my mind, the only way to truly come to an understanding of the keris, is first to come to an understanding of the society that gave it birth.

If we do not at least try to do that, then we are no more than stamp collectors.

David · 19th February 2022, 05:28 PM

Please forgive the bad cellphone photos, but i didn't feel up to breaking out the real camera for this.
Here is one more example of this type of pamor, this time on an older keris in my collection that came in East Jawa dress.
I have always considered it Ujung Gunung though others might see this as Junjung Derajat or Raja Abala Raja i suppose.

A. G. Maisey · 19th February 2022, 09:20 PM

My thoughts run pretty much the same way as yours, David.

But I know at least one very knowledgeable person in Solo who would initially give that as junjung derajad, however if I were to then call it unjung gunung, it would continue to be called ujung gunung during our conversation.

So does that mean the Solo person & I would be in agreement?

No, not at all.

All it would mean is that I'm a wee bit higher up the ladder.

14th February 2022, 03:06 PM	#3
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 477	I am aware of that and in fact I suggested the tongue in cheek “ old marketing” . I have found a number of examples of modernly made krisses with similar forging features. I understand that a western blacksmith would chuck the blade BUT an Indonesian empuh probably, beside not throwing away some work done, he probably thinks that the process is only partly in his hands and that he is rather the instruments of a superior being that through him creates the blade and maks it inhabited by a spirit and gives the blade its properties. I am not trying to make this better than what it is (by the way I was very much thrilled to buy the blade) but when I visited the house (a temple really) of an old Indonesian man here in the NL with a couple of hundreds of krisses , a few were like this and he was telling me how important (to him) these things were. Attached Images Last edited by milandro; 14th February 2022 at 03:13 PM. Reason: pictures

17th February 2022, 10:56 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Jean, thank you very much for your post #13. This demonstrates very nicely exactly what I was commenting on in the first paragraph of my post #12. Now, if we look at Milandro's post #8, we can see somebody or other's idea of the names applicable to several pamors, you have referred back to post #8 and used these names & illustrations to classify the pamor that David has shown in post #11. David has named the pamor in his keris as Ujung Gunung. This keris looks as if it could have come from me, and I would have named it as Ujung Gunung. It was probably a long time ago, but I would still name it as Ujung Gunung today. As to the age of this keris, it could be either current era, or late colonial, I do not remember it, and I cannot differentiate between the two possibilities from a photo. The established & reliable dealers in Solo would name it as either Ujung Gunung or Junjung Drajad (drajat). I believe I might have a copy of the publication that Milandro has taken his picture from, but I forget what it is, and I do not have time to look for it. However, a quick look at recent publications, "Keris Jawa" & "Ensiklopedi Keris", do have pictures of Ujung Gunung, Raja Abala Raja, & Junjung Drajad. I have copied and posted these pics into this post, and added a number to the left hand side of each picture. 1 --- Ensiklopedi Keris 2 --- Ensiklopedi Keris 3 --- Keris Jawa 4 --- Keris Jawa When we give an opinion on the classification of anything to do with a keris, it is always a very good idea to support that opinion by giving a reference to the place, time, & possibly person that has enabled us to provide that classification. Incidentally, I have never heard anybody mention Pamor Raja Abala Raja in Solo, I have seen only one example of this pamor and that was in Malang East Jawa some time prior to 1998, this example was almost exactly as shown in EK, that is with motif elements overlaying each other. I forget what the seller named it as, but I doubt that it was Raja Abala Raja, if it has been I would have remembered that name because it was so unusual. It was probably a Kamardikan. Just one tiny further comment, it might not be a particularly wise idea to use keris information sourced from online searches to validate anything at all to do with keris. Of course, this comment of mine automatically includes this Forum of ours, and I believe many contributors to this forum would agree that even here we need good, solid background knowledge to sort the wheat from the chaff. Attached Images

18th February 2022, 11:24 AM	#18
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	It seems that the pamor pics shown by Milandro basically originate from the book "Pamor Keris" written by Bambang Harsinuksmo and first published in 1985, although B.H differentiates between pamor RAR and PAP. I attach the pages related to these styles of pamor patterns, and it translates approximately as follows: "As a difference (between pamor Ujung Gunung, Junjung Derajat, Raja Abala Raja, and Pandito Bolo Pandito), for pamor Ujung Gunung the base of the angled lines start from the edges of the blade. Pamor Raja Abala Raja is similar to Ujung Gunung, but the angled lines which join together start from several places, from the sor-soran, the middle and the tip of the blade. For pamor Pandito Bolo Pandito, the tip of the the angled lines are all joining together at the tip of the blade". This being said, David, I am not trying to convince you about the ID of the pamor pattern of your blade, I had great difficulties to identify mine, and as said by Alan, the pamor names may be different in Solo than in Yogya or East Java. Pamor Pandito Bolo Pendito is not mentioned in the EK nor book Keris Jawa for instance. Attached Images Last edited by Jean; 18th February 2022 at 11:55 AM.

18th February 2022, 11:27 AM	#19
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 477	I didn’t get it anywhere else than on this very forum, I used the search engine for this type of pamor there was a discussion, there, there was the address which I used in the link to the image as an extra contribution to this thread (which shows how academic these things may go) , I’ve bought another keris with a SIMILAR ( but not identic) pamor. For you to study This is in a Bugis handle and Sarong Attached Images Last edited by milandro; 18th February 2022 at 11:48 AM.

18th February 2022, 12:08 PM	#21
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	So Jean, in 1985 Harsrinuksmo publishes these drawings, and 2004(?) in EK he publishes the drawings that I posted. A comparison between both sets of drawing might be educational. Harsrinuksmo worked with Lumintu. Who actually produced the drawings? To try to demonstrate that one representation is more correct than any other is just too silly for words --- I know you are not trying to do this --- but here we have varying representations of a very scarce pamor that I might have met with once in my lifetime, in spite of the fact that each time I went to Indonesia prior to 2015 I saw & handled several thousand keris. I cannot help but wonder if anybody is at all certain about this particular pamor. Haryoguritno lists it, but I don't think he illustrates it. The simple bare fact is this:- there is a great deal about keris "knowledge" that is not knowledge at all, it is belief, and that belief can be limited to a very small number of people in a single location. RAR appears to be a rather difficult pamor to make, if the illustration in EK can be taken as accurate it is not something that is produced with a single billet manipulated in just a couple of operations, if EK is correct it is produced by preparing a number of small motifs which are then overlaid, more or less as a montage, one upon the other. Yep, this new example is an adeg pamor, some people might call it Adeg Lima --- or adeg + some other number --- but then some other people believe that once an Adeg pamor exceeds three upright strands, that adeg pamor becomes Adeg Sapu, adeg = upright, sapu = broom. Nothing with keris is carved in stone. Just one little thing that we need to remember when we are dealing with the contents of EK & KJ. The author of EK was a journalist with an interest in keris who drew heavily upon the Jogja belief systems where Javanese keris are concerned, this of course was inevitable because his principal source of information was Lumintu. The author of KJ was primarily a collector with a very great deal of his wealth invested in keris, we might wonder just how many of his elite keris are still in his possession. My own perspective is that very, very few keris publications that have been produced in Indonesia have been produced solely for the purpose of spreading knowledge. I know of only one small, limited publication that is totally untainted by obscure objectives and that provides pure, accurate information on the Javanese Keris, and that is the exhibition guide book that was written by Garrett & Bronwen Solyom in the 1970's:- "The world of the Javanese Keris". With every other publication we need a very high level of knowledge and a very cautious approach, as well as the ability to read Bahasa Indonesia very well, to extract much of worth from the plethora of Indonesian keris publications that has been produced. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 18th February 2022 at 12:31 PM.

13th February 2022, 01:13 PM	#1
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 477	Ujung Gunung pamor and Combong I came across one of these krisses and I was lucky to buy it for an affordable price. I do realize that this king of pamor often may result in a vertical split within the layers and that the Indonesian tradition is that this attributes magical powers to the blade (perhaps an early form of good marketing ). Nevertheless I found it very charming and decided to acquire it. I Think this may have been a blade made in Madura, probably something arrived in the NL somewhere around the ’50. Attached Images

14th February 2022, 02:56 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	I have seen keris that have slots or holes in the blade that were obviously pre-determined and intentional. I do understand that weld failures like what caused the slot in your blade are often accepted as “combong” by many collectors, but that does seem to be more a marketing ploy than anything else, attempting to turn a bad forging into something magickal and desirable.

16th February 2022, 01:59 AM	#5
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 282	If you're interested to know more about this blade, I think it may be worth seeing if this is a Tuban style keris. It has a low gandhik and shallow blumbangan, which are features that might support this classification. One way of assessing this is by looking straight down onto the flat face of the gonjo, like shown here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=23 This post will give you an idea of what to look for: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=17 Of course these cues are visual only. My understanding is that opinions about a keris' classification can change when it is in the hand of someone experienced.

16th February 2022, 12:11 PM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	IMO this is a recently made blade (end of 20th century) so the style should be rather identified as kamardikan or Tuban putran (replica) if you wish. Of course other opinions are welcome . Also the pamor pattern looks more like Raja Abala Raja (King of the Kings) rather than Ujung Gunung, but it is not perfectly executed (weld flaw). Regarding the use of plastic wrap for preserving the blades, I also don't use it as it it not required ind a dry environment like in Europe and I keep my blades into their scabbards. The single occurrence of slight blade rusting which I experienced was because the scabbard was new and the wood not fully dry so the moisture affected the blade. I always carefully drench my blades with WD40 upon receipt and wipe the excess, and occasionally apply cendana oil for improving the smell if required. Regards

16th February 2022, 12:20 PM	#8
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 477	thank you, according to the ex-owner (and Indonesian person who took them here when they immigrated) this kris arrived in the NL in the ’50, not that it makes a lot of difference Raja Abala Raja is even nicer as I am reading of its magic attributions

16th February 2022, 12:22 PM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I attach the pics of 2 blades with a pamor pattern tentatively identified as Raja Abala Raja (top) and Ujung Gunung (bottom) for reference and comments if any. Regards Attached Images

16th February 2022, 11:34 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	I'm going to throw a couple of comments into the ring. I do not wish to generate any sort of debate, but simply to assist general understandings. Pamor names. Pamor names vary from place to place and even from person to person. Most of my own keris experience comes from Solo, and even within this local area I have found variation in names applied to pamor motifs. We might find that members of one group of people will use one interpretation of a motif, others will use a different interpretation and thus a different name. Some people like to split the same pamor motif into a number of motif sub-groups, and those sub-groups might only be intelligible & accepted to a very limited number of people. When we get to the group of people who undoubtedly have the greatest knowledge of keris and the deepest background in the keris sub-society, what I have found is that these people tend to group similar motifs into a single overall motif group that covers all similar motifs. If an alternative name is suggested it becomes almost a matter of "call it what you will". On the other hand, collectors in this same Javanese society will discuss for hours --- or longer --- what the "correct" name of a pamor motif should be. This "correct" name is frequently promoted without any knowledge at all of what name is used for the same motif a few hours away in, say, Malang, or even an hour down the road in Ngayogya. So, correct? Correct according to who? In Solo some of the biggest & better known keris dealers have family ties that go back a couple of hundred years in the keris sub-society. They can be descended from famous m'ranggis or empus of the past, their fathers might have been m'ranggis or pande keris, their husbands might still be working as m'ranggis or pande keris. It is exactly as we find in Centini:- the market place is where we learn about keris. It is the dealers who hold the knowledge. But the dealers do not debate with their customers, and they will not impart anything at all that is worth knowing to anybody who is not also a part of the dealer network. My own principal tutor & mentor, Empu Suparman, was a keris dealer for many years before he became recognised as an empu. When we scrape below the surface we find that keris relationships in Central Jawa run like a hidden web just below the surface of the keris sub-society. Keris care & preservation It is a matter of record that I have for many years promoted the use of oil & plastic sleeves as a practical method of protecting keris. I did not invent this method, I copied what I observed amongst keris dealers and other people in Solo who held large numbers of keris. It is true that in Jawa & Bali people who have only one or a few keris will seldom use oil or plastic sleeves to protect a blade. Some people will smoke the blade over menyan on Thursday nights --- in Islamic belief Friday begins after sundown on Thursday, and in Islam, Friday is the Holy day. So this menyan ritual is something purely Islam, it is connected to Islam, rather than to historic keris ritual. But the ordinary people do not recognise this, Buddhists & Christians who might have a keris interest will still smoke their keris over menyan on Thursday after sundown. This regular smoking of a blade helps to delay the onset of corrosion, and a light oiling and then a wipe down of the blade helps even more. But the storage of an oiled blade in an expensive & perhaps irreplaceable wrongko is usually avoided, the reason being that wood, being a cellulose based material will damage ferric material and oil will stain wood. In Jawa during the wet season corrosion can begin to form within 24 hours. So, as I said, I copied what I observed being done in Jawa. I used oil and plastic sleeves. If one chooses not to use some form of protection for a blade , then at the very least the blade should be stored away from its expensive or valued dress wrongko and kept in a sandang walikat storage scabbard, in order to avoid damage, either by oil or by repeated handling, to the wrongko. In less extreme climates than apply in SE Asia, we can get away with keeping a keris in its wrongko for a few years perhaps, but I have been gathering keris around me for 70 years now, I currently have somewhere between 300 & 400 keris and other edged weapons, that is not counting my pocket knives & belt knives & antique cutlery, then there are the old carbon steel hand tools that belonged to my father, his father, and my great-uncle, that I use in the normal course of benchwork & house repair --- the bits for a brace very quickly deteriorate if not kept in an oiled felt roll. At times in the past I have had many more keris & edged weapons than I now have. I do not now, & did not ever in the past, have sufficient time to maintain a regular routine of maintenance. My objective has always been to prepare a keris correctly, and then to keep it in a way that will preserve it for those who come after me. In 2012 I visited several large museums in Europe, several countries were involved. Before I arrived at these museums I had negotiated with the curators for permission to examine and photograph the keris which they held. I will not comment in detail in respect of what I found, but I will give just one example. At one very well known museum I had the opportunity to examine exactly the same keris that a well known keris writer had photographed for a reference work that he produced. One of the keris that he published a photograph of in his work, appears in perfect condition in his publication. When I got to examine it, a few years later, that beautiful keris was difficult to remove from its scabbard because corrosion was binding the blade to the scabbard, the scabbard itself needed repair. The keris and a massive number of other historic weapons were stored higgledepigeldy in open boxes on open shelves. The storage room was constructed like an oversize bank safe, but it was guarding things that were slowly descending into a pile of rust & dust. I assume that the room was climate controlled, but since climate control costs money it might not have been. I have worked with staff at a major Australian museum that has a few keris in storage. That museum is painfully modern. Ferric items, including keris, are stored out of scabbard on glass shelves in a strictly climate controlled environment. This is ideal storage, but I cannot afford this level of protection, so I use & advise oil & plastic sleeves. Before I ever received any tuition from Empu Suparman I had been collecting & studying keris for around 30 years. Members of the weapon collector society in Australia and UK had often commented to me that they regarded it as their responsibility & duty to preserve the items that they held for coming generations. When Empu Suparman began to teach me, he often repeated the same message:- I had a duty to repair, maintain & preserve any keris that I held for later generations. The "repair" duty that Pak Parman added was because he considered that as his continuation I had the knowledge to perform proper traditional repair where that was necessary. His attitude was that he was not just giving his knowledge to me, he was giving his knowledge to the other people whom I would advise & instruct, and thus assist in the preservation of a Javanese heritage. People in Western societies who treasure the museum approach to keris are adopting a value system that is absolutely contrary to the value system of the originating society. This "do as little as possible" approach is regarded as insulting to the keris, insulting to the people who have previously had it in their care, and most of all, insulting to the maker & his memory. People who are not immersed in Javanese keris culture observe and sometimes try to follow what they see, or at least, what they believe they see, but they seldom understand the reasons behind what they think they see, and often confuse the way in what they think they see being performed. When we raise a keris alongside our temple we are paying respect to the memory of the maker of that keris, and to those who have had the keris in their care before us. Some people will believe that they are paying respect to the isi of the keris, but when we see people paying respect to a keris that by its very nature cannot possibly have any isi, then we recognise the depth of ignorance that can exist, even amongst those who fervently believe that they are behaving correctly. As I wrote at the beginning of this rather lengthy comment:- I am not up for debate. Accept or reject my comments. I offer these comments in the spirit of homage to those who have taught me.

18th February 2022, 01:15 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	All that figures David. I don't like to get specific about things unless I'm close enough to certain to be able support my opinion.

18th February 2022, 12:18 PM	#22
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 477	Thank you Jean, I doubt that I would even find my way to interpret all the different pamors, especially when they ( to my superficial ey and , for the time being, mind) appear to be so similar. Even the use of reference books is relative after all since the books were written by humans they wrote about their view but other people may have written about other views too ( whether they did or not). In other words, according to whom? is a very good question. Besides the interpretation of the pattern, also the one of the magical powers are subjet to considerable variations... I read them on line but the authors themselves sometimes offer different meaning for one pamor. Remains fascinating. In my unlearned opinion there seems to be a certain way to read these things which is not unlike what happens to synesthesia, this is phenomenon concerning cross sensorial perceptional things, people see a number or a word or hear a sound and see it as a color, this is a personal thing, the same word, sound or number may be two different colors to different people. Of course there is a tradition but as we know, any tradition is made of consensus and many more disagreements. Having established a “ canon” doesn’t necessarily mean that that “ canon” is the only possible one, it is only the fruit of the majority or of the dominant interpretation.

18th February 2022, 10:07 PM	#24
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Jean, the name I would use for those pamors shown in your post #9 would depend on who I was communicating with and what my feelings were at the time. The ways in which we determine how to name something like this depends upon many factors. That little phrase "name game" gets bandied about fairly frequently, but not many people understand the rules of the game. I think most Javanese people do understand. Instinctively. Rule #1:- chose a name that you feel --- note FEEL, not believe or link to reason, FEEL --- will be understood by, and will not create a negative reaction from the person you are dealing with. When we understand the keris and the society it comes from, we see pretty clearly that we need to create some degree of harmony in order to get anything from any discussion. Empu Suparman's approach to naming a pamor was to try to understand what it was that the maker tried to create. But he did not necessarily try to get anybody else to agree with him. If he thought that the maker might have been trying to create, say, ujung gunung, and the other party thought perhaps it was adeg gone bad, there would be no dispute. No dispute, but simply a statement of opinion. HOWEVER, and it is a big "however" the hierarchical position of the other party automatically dictated the name to be used during that interaction. Where a person did not wish to use his hierarchical position he simply gave no commitment to any one name. After all, the more names, the better. Basic Javanese societal guideline.

19th February 2022, 10:13 AM	#25
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you for your reply Alan, and it demonstrates the huge gap between the traditional Javanese and Westerner's way of thinking and communicating (no commitment), but this is changing quickly I think due to the foreign influences.

19th February 2022, 11:17 AM	#26
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Yes Jean, change is a constant, it affects us all. With Javanese values there might be changes, true, but the way it seems to work in Jawa is that new ideas, new ways, new understandings can come into the society, but those new things get assimilated and become something that is then uniquely Javanese. There is something that a lot of people fail to realise, and it is the deep effect that the hierarchical way of thought alters everything that is subjected to that paradigm. However, this structuring of all things into a ranked order weakens the further one moves from the cultural center of Jawa. We must not think of Jakarta, Surabaya and other major cities as subject to the same interwoven threads of hierarchy that applies in Central Jawa, especially so outside of the commercial heart of the cities. One thing that is so deeply ingrained into traditional Javanese thought is that one must always give the questioner the response that one believes, or feels, that the questioner expects. When the respondent to a question is hierarchically placed at a lower level than the questioner, then it becomes imperative to give a response that is in agreement with what one feels the questioner wishes to hear. Now, consider that cultural trait for a moment when we try to assess the accuracy, or truth of any response that we might receive to any question, if we are an outsider , moreover, an outsider whom many within Javanese society will place hierarchically above themselves. So, if I chose to reply to your question about the name I would place on those pamors you enquired about, AND I had my Javanese hat on, I would either agree with you, or vary my agreement so slightly that variation would be hardly noticeable. In fact, the name that we choose to place on any pamor is totally unimportant. Totally. Totally. Totally. What is important is firstly to understand how the pamor was made, and equally important but from a different perspective, how we can read the talismanic qualities of the pamor by understanding what the motif is intended to convey. As for accurate answers to questions, well, that depends very much upon the situation. A son might might get accurate answers from his father. A student might get accurate answers from his teacher, but if the father and the teacher are behaving in accordance with Javanese standards, the accuracy of the answer will be qualified by what he feels the student is able to understand. To my mind, the only way to truly come to an understanding of the keris, is first to come to an understanding of the society that gave it birth. If we do not at least try to do that, then we are no more than stamp collectors.

19th February 2022, 05:28 PM	#27
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Please forgive the bad cellphone photos, but i didn't feel up to breaking out the real camera for this. Here is one more example of this type of pamor, this time on an older keris in my collection that came in East Jawa dress. I have always considered it Ujung Gunung though others might see this as Junjung Derajat or Raja Abala Raja i suppose. Attached Images

19th February 2022, 09:20 PM	#28
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	My thoughts run pretty much the same way as yours, David. But I know at least one very knowledgeable person in Solo who would initially give that as junjung derajad, however if I were to then call it unjung gunung, it would continue to be called ujung gunung during our conversation. So does that mean the Solo person & I would be in agreement? No, not at all. All it would mean is that I'm a wee bit higher up the ladder.