Mail Shirt - East Europe / Prob. 2nd half XV cent.

[RogerFox]

Here we are, talking about what i'm more comfortable

Little by little i will post some pieces from my personal collection, hoping they can be interesting to anyone who love mail armors and such topics.

This one is the first friend that basically started my own collection, some years ago.

As mail maker and lover, i always try to find out references that can helps to better understand and map as many mail pieces scattered all over the world, inside museum, personal collection, etc.

Dating and geographically point out precisely a mail piece is not a simple task. In some rare case we have maker marks that can help us better define the provenace, but most of the time we must look for visual and objective relationships with the various known pieces. Even the historical dating is not at all so obvious and easy. Whether it is European or Eastern mails.

The general design of the piece, the tailoring, the specific shape of the rings, the riveting method, the construction pattern, the presence or absence of posthumous alterations, and so on.

As if all this wasn't enough, we know for a fact that many mails underwent modifications, cuts and reassemblies during the 19th century, when many collections and museums began to be set up and opened to the public, using many of these pieces as aesthetic fillers for plates armors.

I do personally clean and restore my own pieces, with no chemicals and mechanical tools, just patience and handwork... so i can perfectly decide the level of intervention. Said that i will proceed presenting my first contribution to this forum.

Please feel free to comment, add info and ask anything you like... we are here to share and gain knowledge

[Raf]

In an earlier post (chain mail) I illustrated some fragments of mercury gilded brass mail recovered from the river Thames. Do you have any observations on this ?

[Jim McDougall]

Roger I am really glad you posted this! While I cannot claim any other than cursory familiarity with mail, it is a subject in an area notably seldom traveled here and it will be great to learn more from someone with your specialized expertise.

Obviously mail was ubiquitous in Europe and pretty much everywhere for the centuries, so there must be many inherent peculiarities which might help identify surviving examples. From my perspective as a historian, naturally mail has come up often in the study of nearly every area I have researched, and in so many ways it is hard to focus on where to begin.

For example, mail originally from European regions traveled into virtually every colonial destination, where it often became used by the native populations.
It has always been well known, and often romantically exploited by wistful writers in adventure themes that the 'crusaders' were in effect still very much still alive and well in North Africa with native warriors still carrying broadswords and wearing mail.
This was so consistent that they began making their own, which was the topic in the work by Arkell, (I believe the title was "The Making of Mail armor in the Sudan") who observed them actually producing it.

Regarding markings on mail, it seems I have read of cases where crosses or such perhaps talismanic devices were sometimes even placed on the flattened part of rings, much as with such marking of sword blades.

In one reference noting curious markings, often letters paired etc. were found in various locations on harness (plate armor and components), apparently keyed to align pieces for assembly (rather like numbered parts).

Was this ever done with mail as far as assembly?

With the Spaniards in the New World, from the time of the Conquistadors, mail was the most commonly known form of armor. It was reasonably available to the average person, often family or other heirloom type sets, which most of the members of these 'expeditions' were. These were not 'military' missions, and equipment not 'issued' but personally supplied.
From what I have understood, keeping mail serviceable in remote areas subject to often dramatic climate effects was a challenge at best. The deterioration of the mail as well as its compromise proved a poor defense against Indian arrows which not only broke the corroded rings, but carried the debris into the wound causing inevitable sepsis etc.
This led to the well known 'cuera', leather armor so well known in New Spain.

How was mail kept serviceable...that is kept from rusting or corroding?


These are the kinds of things that always piqued my interest,and it would be great to know your thoughts and observations.

* just noticing Raf's excellent question.......Roger you may have opened Pandoras box here, but frankly we could use a resident authority on mail.

[RogerFox]

Originally Posted by Raf

In an earlier post (chain mail) I illustrated some fragments of mercury gilded brass mail recovered from the river Thames. Do you have any observations on this ?

Ok i saw the post, well... i'm not quite sure why you refear to those rings as "mercury gilged"?... I'm really far to be an expert but they does just look brass rings to me

From what i can see they looks round riveted and yes, very thin wire size and pretty big diameter... so they can easily part of the edge of some mail garments.

[RogerFox]

Jim, i'm really far from being an expert. I'm moving my steps in the never ending journey of learning...

About your questions, well... yes, we have many example of stamped rings with religious meaning, names, etc. but it was mostly done in the islamic areas of the world.

I do personally never seen any "contruction marks" in specific sections of mail pieces, mostly because mail armors were not designed to be "taken apart" and put back together. When you needed to redo it or modify it, you did it by "cutting and sewing" the new piece. At least you can always add some marking rings just clipping them on the others and take them off when the work is done.

The rusting problem is another interesting matter. We know by experience that the most you use your mail armor, the most it kept clean by itself, just thanks to the movements the rings makes.

The problem comes out when you don't use it so often

But of course, i can image that wearing a piece of metal in the middle of the jungle and keep it "safe" is an hard challenge for everyone. I don't know anything specific on this topic, but i do know what indians used to do for keeping their Zirah Baktar protected by rust (the typical indian mail armors)... they covered them with mud, and that why we often see armor from those regions coming out with a relative brown color and stain overall.

Maybe they used to do it also in the middle of the New World?

[awdaniec666]

Hi Roger,

I wonder, why have mail shirts and its parts generally so little corrosion after all this time? I mean, even looked after medival swords often look like minefields. Is the steel harder or mixed with other elements than blades, do you know how that comes?
Anyway I´m looking forward to read more of your kindly detailed contributions.

Cheers,
Patrick

[RogerFox]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

Hi Roger,

I wonder, why have mail shirts and its parts generally so little corrosion after all this time? I mean, even looked after medival swords often look like minefields. Is the steel harder or mixed with other elements than blades, do you know how that comes?
Anyway I´m looking forward to read more of your kindly detailed contributions.

Cheers,
Patrick

Well, even mails suffer from corrosion in some cases. I have personally handled some piece with parts so corroded that they crumbled simply by moving the link.
But it is true that in general we have many examples of mails in fair condition.

However, we must make a clarification... medieval swords means swords before the 16th century, and the same goes for mails.

The most we go back in time, the less pieces we have and, usually, the worst are the conditions.

I think that in general the main reason that determines the state of conservation of an artefact is precisely the way in which it has been preserved over time... let me explain.
It is clear that a metal object, which spends centuries buried in the earth, or closed in a humid environment in contact with wet walls, etc. or buried in a grave to rot with its owner... it certainly has a high probability of ending up corroded by rust and oxide.
On the contrary, the more protected he remains from these elements, the better his chances of remaining "healthy" are.

Many of the swords and armor we see in museums, in excellent condition, are all post 15th century. Therefore they are most likely stored in better "protected" environments, perhaps indoors in trunks or wardrobes, in sword scabbard, or even simply protected with burnishing systems or superficial protective applications.
For example, mails (excluding those buried or found in rivers and mud fields), I imagine easily stored in closed containers, like normal clothes (but much more resistant).
In fact, all those with serious rust and corrosion encrustations clearly have been in contact with humid agents for a long time, and therefore kept uncovered, unprotected and so on.

I believe that many examples prior to the 15th century, if not reused in subsequent centuries or dismembered for garments suitable for Renaissance military fashions, were practically "abandoned" to themselves... even simply kept in unsuitable places and not cleaned/handled for centuries.

[Jim McDougall]

While I think Roger will answer Patricks question better, I just read a little on the subject of corrosion etc. with mail.

One of the key factors may have been the quality of the material, iron or steel, and the degree of proper processing. Poorly forged or poor quality material would seem more likely to encounter corrosion and compromise.

Good question though, how does mail remain in such good condition.
One thing about swords which are from old collections that have been displayed seem to have corroded more on the surface exposed due to dust accumulation absorbing moisture, while the reverse not getting as much dust was less exposed to dust and moisture. That was one suggestion I once heard.

Some mail may have been case hardened, thus less vulnerable.

I saw some detail on plating rings with brass or bronze as mentioned in post earlier, with the term electroplating....which seems kind of a modern process.

[RogerFox]

Yes Jim, the exposure theroy is in some way part of my argument... an object kept still for decades in the same position, will suffer different range of oxidation, dust and rust, depending on the sides exposed. Sure, it sound really appropriate.

There is also another thing to consider.. most of the well preserved items we can see today, weapons, armors and so on... kept their overall good conditions expecially thanks to the fact that they were "family collections". So they came out from quite "protected" situations... on the contrary, many corroded items were found in outdoor enviroments, such as graves, battleflieds and so on.
This is a situation we can see even on most recent items such WW2 helmets, bayonettes and others.

The hardening of late medieval weapons and armors is for sure a good point for the preservation, but i think that the main ruining process is caused by the real place where the items were left for centuries.

Note: once an expert told me that technically there is no "iron items" (speaking about medieval times) but they are all different level of steel... thats because the iron is in fact the mineral itself

[Teisani]

Originally Posted by RogerFox

Note: once an expert told me that technically there is no "iron items" (speaking about medieval times) but they are all different level of steel... thats because the iron is in fact the mineral itself

That's generally true today as well. It is very difficult, even today, to purify iron to the point that it shows its true face. That's due to carbon, even in remarkably low concentrations, being able to modify ferritic iron's mechanical properties.

[Victrix]

I think I read somewhere that the mail was cleaned by scrubbing it in sand. Would make sense.

[awdaniec666]

Thanks for replying. Another point that came to my mind reading your toughts is the worth of an item which surely would have an impact on the treatment it received from its owners. Roger, do you happen to know what a mail shirt would have cost in the late 16th century? It would be interesting to compare to swords. In Styria a Dusegge was 1,5 Gulden, a Hungarian Pallasch 2 Gulden and a Zweihänder was 6 Gulden. Maybe a mail shirt was generally much more expensive and better to store which gave it an obvious benefit for "survival" in comparison to rigid and long swords. A Gulden by the way was about 0,5 to 0,75 Ounces of silver in the HRR of the 16th century.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

In Styria a Dusegge was 1,5 Gulden, a Hungarian Pallasch 2 Gulden and a Zweihänder was 6 Gulden. Maybe a mail shirt was generally much more expensive and better to store which gave it an obvious benefit for "survival" in comparison to rigid and long swords. A Gulden by the way was about 0,5 to 0,75 Ounces of silver in the HRR of the 16th century.

Thank you! That is fantastic information. At this time in central Europe silver seems much more valuable than now. Maybe the basis of silver's value is the amount of human labor it takes to acquire it. Thus, making it much less of a stable medium of exchange over time than generally thought. Though if you think of the current pay for a black smith in an underdeveloped country the price you gave in silver still line up.

[Jim McDougall]

Roger, thank you so much for so comprehensively fielding all of these questions, as well as opening this thread!

With regard to the queries on whether the character of the metal used in mail might have been a key factor in whether it was badly deteriorated by corrosion or survived in relatively sound condition:

One reference I found suggested 'case hardening' . I have little metallurgical knowledge...what exactly is this and does such process have any part in early mail production?
On that same note....the mention of 'electroplating' , which seems to be some sort of applying brass or bronze type metal in coating the rings to prevent corrosion. ......is that term correct? seems too modern.

I found notes suggesting that often the mail was oiled or 'waxed' between usage.

I had heard or mail being cleaned by working it in sand and some sort of agent (urine? was suggested) to remove rust and stabilize the metal.
This of course must have been some sort of rudimentary maintenance in the field.
It would seem that lack of proper care was an issue in the expeditions to the New World and the weaponry and equipment used by the men, who were not necessarily military and using self supplied items. An individual not well initiated in such matters using some old mail he may have acquired from various means would likely not be attuned to such protocols

These situations I think led to the ultimate adoption of leather armor by the Spaniards as better protection from the deadly arrows, which would often easily penetrate mail, especially with compromised metal rings.

[RogerFox]

Originally Posted by Victrix

I think I read somewhere that the mail was cleaned by scrubbing it in sand. Would make sense.

That is true. Sand tumbling was (is) a good way to overall clean the mail pieces, but it works mostly just for superficial oxidation... less effective for deep rust patina and corrosion.

[RogerFox]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

Thanks for replying. Another point that came to my mind reading your toughts is the worth of an item which surely would have an impact on the treatment it received from its owners. Roger, do you happen to know what a mail shirt would have cost in the late 16th century? It would be interesting to compare to swords. In Styria a Dusegge was 1,5 Gulden, a Hungarian Pallasch 2 Gulden and a Zweihänder was 6 Gulden. Maybe a mail shirt was generally much more expensive and better to store which gave it an obvious benefit for "survival" in comparison to rigid and long swords. A Gulden by the way was about 0,5 to 0,75 Ounces of silver in the HRR of the 16th century.

It's a great topic and I have to admit that I don't know it in detail. Considering the vastness of interpretations that this question contains (In which part of the world? What level of quality? Massive production or specific pieces? and so on...) I intend to investigate further

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Thank you! That is fantastic information. At this time in central Europe silver seems much more valuable than now. Maybe the basis of silver's value is the amount of human labor it takes to acquire it. Thus, making it much less of a stable medium of exchange over time than generally thought. Though if you think of the current pay for a black smith in an underdeveloped country the price you gave in silver still line up.

Today half the production of silver is as a byproduct in the mining of zinc, lead and copper. So I guess there is sometimes excess supply of the metal. Although generally regarded as a precious metal, it also has industrial use making demand for the metal more cyclical than gold. A lot of the demand for gold comes from central banks who hold it as part of their foreign currency reserves. Silver is appreciated for its beauty in jewelry and decoration, but a problem is that it oxidates which requires labour intensive regular polishing. All this means the price of silver today is notoriously more volatile than gold.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

One thing about swords which are from old collections that have been displayed seem to have corroded more on the surface exposed due to dust accumulation absorbing moisture, while the reverse not getting as much dust was less exposed to dust and moisture. That was one suggestion I once heard...

Far from intending to go off topic, but this is indeed a subject rather tempting to raise.
I live less than a mile away from the salty Atlantic coast, and every time i pick up an old sword (or gun) from the walls for whatever reason, i am horrified with how fast topic rust invades the upper areas. Yes, only the upper areas. Whatever recipe of moister and dust creates in the air above and then falls down for assault on top of them.



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[Raf]

Originally Posted by RogerFox

Ok i saw the post, well... i'm not quite sure why you refear to those rings as "mercury gilged"?... I'm really far to be an expert but they does just look brass rings to me

From what i can see they looks round riveted and yes, very thin wire size and pretty big diameter... so they can easily part of the edge of some mail garments.

Yes the wire is very thin but 7mm diameter isn't exactly large. They are wedge rivited and it seems incredible that this was done with such fine wire . And yes they are gilded. Perhaps one should not be surprised since brass medieval / Tudor dress pins are often gilded. The use of decorative borders implies to me that mail had an aesthetic as well as functional value and this reflected its high cost.

[RogerFox]

Well, if we start from the assumption that any type of "surface finish" applied to a metal (be it oil, grease, mud, paint, etc.) can somehow protect it from oxide, it is basically sure that they were used.
Cleaning in the barrels with sand is also documented as being practiced. But we are still talking about rust protection methods, as you say, on fields.

Another area of discussion is the protection that has occurred over the centuries... and there, I don't think any surface application method could resist for so long. Indeed, it is probable that a greasy surface finish, left still and exposed to humidity and dust for centuries, would end up filling with organic material, creating those very hard dark patinas with which we find some pieces of mail today. I have one in exactly those conditions that I am slowly restoring to an acceptable level of cleanliness.

Regarding the suggestive idea that mails were produced entirely in bronze, gold and covered with these materials, I don't think there is any documented evidence of such finds. Some pieces, even large ones, yes, but for the rest, from what we know, the main material used was steel. Perhaps in history it may be that some single piece of particular value was made of such precious materials, but it would remain a rare case.

About the Spaniards, i admit my ignorance on that topic right now, but i do keep in mind the thing that by their time (begin of XVI cent. and later) Mails production in Europe was beginning to diminish its importance, many pieces were obtained from old, larger shirts and re-adapted mainly to cover the gaps between the parts of the armour. Perhaps, considering the sea transport and the long journey required, they did not consider it necessary to carry parts of that type with them. Perhaps, hidden in the forests of Central America, there are still pieces waiting to be found... maybe used as trading value for golds or something else.



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[RogerFox]

Originally Posted by Raf

Yes the wire is very thin but 7mm diameter isn't exactly large. They are wedge rivited and it seems incredible that this was done with such fine wire . And yes they are gilded. Perhaps one should not be surprised since brass medieval / Tudor dress pins are often gilded. The use of decorative borders implies to me that mail had an aesthetic as well as functional value and this reflected its high cost.

Ok 7mm is the average diameter, but for such thin wire size if often used just for edge parts (not collar). From the picture you posted they looks round riveted. I can clearly see the head of the rivets and they do not looks wedge at all (maybe a clear front/back picture can show it better). The gilded thing is quite interesting... i'd like to see it better for understanding how it looks.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Far from intending to go off topic, but this is indeed a subject rather tempting to raise.
I live less than a mile away from the salty Atlantic coast, and every time i pick up an old sword (or gun) from the walls for whatever reason, i am horrified with how fast topic rust invades the upper areas. Yes, only the upper areas. Whatever recipe of moister and dust creates in the air above and then falls down for assault on top of them.



.

Well noted Fernando. that was the term I was looking for ,'topical' rust.
I first came across this apparently consistent phenomenon when reading of arms and armor which resided over long periods as funerary relics in churches' tombs.
Not at all off topic, as one topic queried here has been the variation in the condition of period mail and what might cause some to be better preserved than others.
It is well known in 'arms forensics' that surprisingly some swords found in river beds or in many cases even ocean deposits where silt is so compacted, they are in better condition than those deposited in earth.
This has to do with goethite ? mineral reactions from within the metal.
Uh, that is the extent of my empirical scientific knowledge on this.

I had an old cannonball that sat in my desk for many years. One day it literally disintegrated into a heap of ferric residue, literally having corroded from within! despite it being static for so many years.
This returns to the possible levels or degree of purity ? of the iron used in certain instances, where weapons and armor were more 'worked'..perhaps.

[Jim McDougall]

Roger, again thank you.
I agree any sort of maintenance using various material or protective substances would lend to the durability and resilience of the component metal. It seems there was mention of gilding etc. as protective, not to mention of course decorative attraction, in the case of high station individuals.

In "Arms and Armor of the Conquistadors 1492-1600" (Walter Karcheski, 1990, p.3, the famed conquistador Hernando Cortes was described at the time of his attack on Cibola (1540), as "gilded and glittered" in his armor. Naturally this may have been a plate cuirass given his rank, while at large the armor worn by other ranks was mostly mail, with occasional plate components.

While mail was quickly phasing out in Europe to plate components, it remained in use in the America's well through the 17th c.

Here in Texas, we have the enduring legend of 'Chief Iron Shirt', the Comanche chief who was thought to be supernatural as he seemed impervious to bullets.
It seems he had worn an old shirt of mail inherited from his father, also a Comanche chief who had acquired this apparently in some manner from Spanish means. He was apparently called 'chief cota de mailla' by the local Spanish for the iron shirt he wore.

Interestingly the chief I am speaking of, the son, was named Puhihwikwasu'u
(=brass man, in Comanche), bringing to mind the possible presence of brass components perhaps in the 'shirt'.

In 1858, in battle in the Red River regions of North Texas, his luck ran out.
Apparently the mail was effective against light weapon fire, however it was no match for the 'buffalo gun' of one of Ford's Texas Rangers, and he was killed.
Unfortunately his body was not recovered, though parts of the mail were taken as souvenirs. I am not aware of any of those surviving.

Just illustrating some colorful aspects of old mail in other contexts. In the Sudan during the campaigns with the British in late 1890s, the native warriors in many cases were wearing mail which was often locally made.
While the soldiers carried away literally tons of souvenirs, swords, spear heads, etc.........the mail was left behind.........too heavy.

[RogerFox]

Veru cool story abput the Chief Comanche!! The story of a coat of mail inherited from ancestors seems perfectly legitimate.

About the Sudan mails, by now all the story came out. It is a fact that they used to wear indo/persian (sometime European) riveted mail... or self producted butted mail. I wonder what kind of treasure we lost in those regions, left behind by soldiers and people.


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[fernando]

Members are recommended to reduce the size of each quotation to the part of the texts they wish to emphasize !



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[awdaniec666]

Found something interesting regarding rust on mail on a Wikipedia site in German.

"Rost ist für Kettenrüstungen kaum ein Problem, wenn sie regelmäßig getragen und sorgfältig gelagert werden. Nach Auskunft des Experimentalarchäologen Marcus Junkelmann, der viele Erfahrungen mit Nachbauten römischer Kettenpanzer sammelte, reiben die Ringe bei Bewegungen des Trägers unablässig aneinander und scheuern so den Rost ab. Bei ständigem Tragen ist nicht einmal Einölen erforderlich, selbst bei nassem Wetter und sogar beim Einsatz im Wasser. Lediglich ein intensiver schwarzer Eisenabrieb ist festzustellen. Bei unsachgemäßer Lagerung kann ein unbenutzter Panzer aber schnell zu einem Klumpen zusammenrosten, verschiedene Beispiele sind aus archäologischen Funden erhalten."

Translation:

"Rust is hardly a problem for chain armour if it is worn regularly and stored carefully. According to the experimental archaeologist Marcus Junkelmann, who has gained a great deal of experience with replicas of Roman chain armour, the rings rub against each other constantly when the wearer moves, thus rubbing off the rust. With constant wear, oiling is not even necessary, even in wet weather and even when used in water. Only an intensive black iron abrasion is noticeable. If stored improperly, however, an unused armour can quickly rust together into a lump; various examples have been preserved from archaeological finds."

Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketten...ng#Herstellung

[RogerFox]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

Found something interesting regarding rust on mail on a Wikipedia site in German.


"Rust is hardly a problem for chain armour if it is worn regularly and stored carefully. According to the experimental archaeologist Marcus Junkelmann, who has gained a great deal of experience with replicas of Roman chain armour, the rings rub against each other constantly when the wearer moves, thus rubbing off the rust. With constant wear, oiling is not even necessary, even in wet weather and even when used in water. Only an intensive black iron abrasion is noticeable. If stored improperly, however, an unused armour can quickly rust together into a lump; various examples have been preserved from archaeological finds."

Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketten...ng#Herstellung

And thas exactly what i was talking about.