Mail Shirt - East Europe / Prob. 2nd half XV cent.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

One thing about swords which are from old collections that have been displayed seem to have corroded more on the surface exposed due to dust accumulation absorbing moisture, while the reverse not getting as much dust was less exposed to dust and moisture. That was one suggestion I once heard...

Far from intending to go off topic, but this is indeed a subject rather tempting to raise.
I live less than a mile away from the salty Atlantic coast, and every time i pick up an old sword (or gun) from the walls for whatever reason, i am horrified with how fast topic rust invades the upper areas. Yes, only the upper areas. Whatever recipe of moister and dust creates in the air above and then falls down for assault on top of them.



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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Far from intending to go off topic, but this is indeed a subject rather tempting to raise.
I live less than a mile away from the salty Atlantic coast, and every time i pick up an old sword (or gun) from the walls for whatever reason, i am horrified with how fast topic rust invades the upper areas. Yes, only the upper areas. Whatever recipe of moister and dust creates in the air above and then falls down for assault on top of them.



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Well noted Fernando. that was the term I was looking for ,'topical' rust.
I first came across this apparently consistent phenomenon when reading of arms and armor which resided over long periods as funerary relics in churches' tombs.
Not at all off topic, as one topic queried here has been the variation in the condition of period mail and what might cause some to be better preserved than others.
It is well known in 'arms forensics' that surprisingly some swords found in river beds or in many cases even ocean deposits where silt is so compacted, they are in better condition than those deposited in earth.
This has to do with goethite ? mineral reactions from within the metal.
Uh, that is the extent of my empirical scientific knowledge on this.

I had an old cannonball that sat in my desk for many years. One day it literally disintegrated into a heap of ferric residue, literally having corroded from within! despite it being static for so many years.
This returns to the possible levels or degree of purity ? of the iron used in certain instances, where weapons and armor were more 'worked'..perhaps.

[Jim McDougall]

Roger, again thank you.
I agree any sort of maintenance using various material or protective substances would lend to the durability and resilience of the component metal. It seems there was mention of gilding etc. as protective, not to mention of course decorative attraction, in the case of high station individuals.

In "Arms and Armor of the Conquistadors 1492-1600" (Walter Karcheski, 1990, p.3, the famed conquistador Hernando Cortes was described at the time of his attack on Cibola (1540), as "gilded and glittered" in his armor. Naturally this may have been a plate cuirass given his rank, while at large the armor worn by other ranks was mostly mail, with occasional plate components.

While mail was quickly phasing out in Europe to plate components, it remained in use in the America's well through the 17th c.

Here in Texas, we have the enduring legend of 'Chief Iron Shirt', the Comanche chief who was thought to be supernatural as he seemed impervious to bullets.
It seems he had worn an old shirt of mail inherited from his father, also a Comanche chief who had acquired this apparently in some manner from Spanish means. He was apparently called 'chief cota de mailla' by the local Spanish for the iron shirt he wore.

Interestingly the chief I am speaking of, the son, was named Puhihwikwasu'u
(=brass man, in Comanche), bringing to mind the possible presence of brass components perhaps in the 'shirt'.

In 1858, in battle in the Red River regions of North Texas, his luck ran out.
Apparently the mail was effective against light weapon fire, however it was no match for the 'buffalo gun' of one of Ford's Texas Rangers, and he was killed.
Unfortunately his body was not recovered, though parts of the mail were taken as souvenirs. I am not aware of any of those surviving.

Just illustrating some colorful aspects of old mail in other contexts. In the Sudan during the campaigns with the British in late 1890s, the native warriors in many cases were wearing mail which was often locally made.
While the soldiers carried away literally tons of souvenirs, swords, spear heads, etc.........the mail was left behind.........too heavy.

[RogerFox]

Veru cool story abput the Chief Comanche!! The story of a coat of mail inherited from ancestors seems perfectly legitimate.

About the Sudan mails, by now all the story came out. It is a fact that they used to wear indo/persian (sometime European) riveted mail... or self producted butted mail. I wonder what kind of treasure we lost in those regions, left behind by soldiers and people.


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[fernando]

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[awdaniec666]

Found something interesting regarding rust on mail on a Wikipedia site in German.

"Rost ist für Kettenrüstungen kaum ein Problem, wenn sie regelmäßig getragen und sorgfältig gelagert werden. Nach Auskunft des Experimentalarchäologen Marcus Junkelmann, der viele Erfahrungen mit Nachbauten römischer Kettenpanzer sammelte, reiben die Ringe bei Bewegungen des Trägers unablässig aneinander und scheuern so den Rost ab. Bei ständigem Tragen ist nicht einmal Einölen erforderlich, selbst bei nassem Wetter und sogar beim Einsatz im Wasser. Lediglich ein intensiver schwarzer Eisenabrieb ist festzustellen. Bei unsachgemäßer Lagerung kann ein unbenutzter Panzer aber schnell zu einem Klumpen zusammenrosten, verschiedene Beispiele sind aus archäologischen Funden erhalten."

Translation:

"Rust is hardly a problem for chain armour if it is worn regularly and stored carefully. According to the experimental archaeologist Marcus Junkelmann, who has gained a great deal of experience with replicas of Roman chain armour, the rings rub against each other constantly when the wearer moves, thus rubbing off the rust. With constant wear, oiling is not even necessary, even in wet weather and even when used in water. Only an intensive black iron abrasion is noticeable. If stored improperly, however, an unused armour can quickly rust together into a lump; various examples have been preserved from archaeological finds."

Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketten...ng#Herstellung

[RogerFox]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

Found something interesting regarding rust on mail on a Wikipedia site in German.


"Rust is hardly a problem for chain armour if it is worn regularly and stored carefully. According to the experimental archaeologist Marcus Junkelmann, who has gained a great deal of experience with replicas of Roman chain armour, the rings rub against each other constantly when the wearer moves, thus rubbing off the rust. With constant wear, oiling is not even necessary, even in wet weather and even when used in water. Only an intensive black iron abrasion is noticeable. If stored improperly, however, an unused armour can quickly rust together into a lump; various examples have been preserved from archaeological finds."

Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketten...ng#Herstellung

And thas exactly what i was talking about.