Mail Shirt - East Europe / Prob. 2nd half XV cent.

awdaniec666 · 13th January 2024, 09:55 AM

Thanks for replying. Another point that came to my mind reading your toughts is the worth of an item which surely would have an impact on the treatment it received from its owners. Roger, do you happen to know what a mail shirt would have cost in the late 16th century? It would be interesting to compare to swords. In Styria a Dusegge was 1,5 Gulden, a Hungarian Pallasch 2 Gulden and a Zweihänder was 6 Gulden. Maybe a mail shirt was generally much more expensive and better to store which gave it an obvious benefit for "survival" in comparison to rigid and long swords. A Gulden by the way was about 0,5 to 0,75 Ounces of silver in the HRR of the 16th century.

Interested Party · 13th January 2024, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

In Styria a Dusegge was 1,5 Gulden, a Hungarian Pallasch 2 Gulden and a Zweihänder was 6 Gulden. Maybe a mail shirt was generally much more expensive and better to store which gave it an obvious benefit for "survival" in comparison to rigid and long swords. A Gulden by the way was about 0,5 to 0,75 Ounces of silver in the HRR of the 16th century.

Thank you! That is fantastic information. At this time in central Europe silver seems much more valuable than now. Maybe the basis of silver's value is the amount of human labor it takes to acquire it. Thus, making it much less of a stable medium of exchange over time than generally thought. Though if you think of the current pay for a black smith in an underdeveloped country the price you gave in silver still line up.

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2024, 02:07 PM

Roger, thank you so much for so comprehensively fielding all of these questions, as well as opening this thread!

With regard to the queries on whether the character of the metal used in mail might have been a key factor in whether it was badly deteriorated by corrosion or survived in relatively sound condition:

One reference I found suggested 'case hardening' . I have little metallurgical knowledge...what exactly is this and does such process have any part in early mail production?
On that same note....the mention of 'electroplating' , which seems to be some sort of applying brass or bronze type metal in coating the rings to prevent corrosion. ......is that term correct? seems too modern.

I found notes suggesting that often the mail was oiled or 'waxed' between usage.

I had heard or mail being cleaned by working it in sand and some sort of agent (urine? was suggested) to remove rust and stabilize the metal.
This of course must have been some sort of rudimentary maintenance in the field.
It would seem that lack of proper care was an issue in the expeditions to the New World and the weaponry and equipment used by the men, who were not necessarily military and using self supplied items. An individual not well initiated in such matters using some old mail he may have acquired from various means would likely not be attuned to such protocols

These situations I think led to the ultimate adoption of leather armor by the Spaniards as better protection from the deadly arrows, which would often easily penetrate mail, especially with compromised metal rings.

RogerFox · 13th January 2024, 03:55 PM

Well, if we start from the assumption that any type of "surface finish" applied to a metal (be it oil, grease, mud, paint, etc.) can somehow protect it from oxide, it is basically sure that they were used.
Cleaning in the barrels with sand is also documented as being practiced. But we are still talking about rust protection methods, as you say, on fields.

Another area of discussion is the protection that has occurred over the centuries... and there, I don't think any surface application method could resist for so long. Indeed, it is probable that a greasy surface finish, left still and exposed to humidity and dust for centuries, would end up filling with organic material, creating those very hard dark patinas with which we find some pieces of mail today. I have one in exactly those conditions that I am slowly restoring to an acceptable level of cleanliness.

Regarding the suggestive idea that mails were produced entirely in bronze, gold and covered with these materials, I don't think there is any documented evidence of such finds. Some pieces, even large ones, yes, but for the rest, from what we know, the main material used was steel. Perhaps in history it may be that some single piece of particular value was made of such precious materials, but it would remain a rare case.

About the Spaniards, i admit my ignorance on that topic right now, but i do keep in mind the thing that by their time (begin of XVI cent. and later) Mails production in Europe was beginning to diminish its importance, many pieces were obtained from old, larger shirts and re-adapted mainly to cover the gaps between the parts of the armour. Perhaps, considering the sea transport and the long journey required, they did not consider it necessary to carry parts of that type with them. Perhaps, hidden in the forests of Central America, there are still pieces waiting to be found... maybe used as trading value for golds or something else.

-

Victrix · 13th January 2024, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Thank you! That is fantastic information. At this time in central Europe silver seems much more valuable than now. Maybe the basis of silver's value is the amount of human labor it takes to acquire it. Thus, making it much less of a stable medium of exchange over time than generally thought. Though if you think of the current pay for a black smith in an underdeveloped country the price you gave in silver still line up.

Today half the production of silver is as a byproduct in the mining of zinc, lead and copper. So I guess there is sometimes excess supply of the metal. Although generally regarded as a precious metal, it also has industrial use making demand for the metal more cyclical than gold. A lot of the demand for gold comes from central banks who hold it as part of their foreign currency reserves. Silver is appreciated for its beauty in jewelry and decoration, but a problem is that it oxidates which requires labour intensive regular polishing. All this means the price of silver today is notoriously more volatile than gold.

RogerFox · 13th January 2024, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

Thanks for replying. Another point that came to my mind reading your toughts is the worth of an item which surely would have an impact on the treatment it received from its owners. Roger, do you happen to know what a mail shirt would have cost in the late 16th century? It would be interesting to compare to swords. In Styria a Dusegge was 1,5 Gulden, a Hungarian Pallasch 2 Gulden and a Zweihänder was 6 Gulden. Maybe a mail shirt was generally much more expensive and better to store which gave it an obvious benefit for "survival" in comparison to rigid and long swords. A Gulden by the way was about 0,5 to 0,75 Ounces of silver in the HRR of the 16th century.

It's a great topic and I have to admit that I don't know it in detail. Considering the vastness of interpretations that this question contains (In which part of the world? What level of quality? Massive production or specific pieces? and so on...) I intend to investigate further

13th January 2024, 03:55 PM	#4
RogerFox Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: Italy Posts: 19	Well, if we start from the assumption that any type of "surface finish" applied to a metal (be it oil, grease, mud, paint, etc.) can somehow protect it from oxide, it is basically sure that they were used. Cleaning in the barrels with sand is also documented as being practiced. But we are still talking about rust protection methods, as you say, on fields. Another area of discussion is the protection that has occurred over the centuries... and there, I don't think any surface application method could resist for so long. Indeed, it is probable that a greasy surface finish, left still and exposed to humidity and dust for centuries, would end up filling with organic material, creating those very hard dark patinas with which we find some pieces of mail today. I have one in exactly those conditions that I am slowly restoring to an acceptable level of cleanliness. Regarding the suggestive idea that mails were produced entirely in bronze, gold and covered with these materials, I don't think there is any documented evidence of such finds. Some pieces, even large ones, yes, but for the rest, from what we know, the main material used was steel. Perhaps in history it may be that some single piece of particular value was made of such precious materials, but it would remain a rare case. About the Spaniards, i admit my ignorance on that topic right now, but i do keep in mind the thing that by their time (begin of XVI cent. and later) Mails production in Europe was beginning to diminish its importance, many pieces were obtained from old, larger shirts and re-adapted mainly to cover the gaps between the parts of the armour. Perhaps, considering the sea transport and the long journey required, they did not consider it necessary to carry parts of that type with them. Perhaps, hidden in the forests of Central America, there are still pieces waiting to be found... maybe used as trading value for golds or something else. - Last edited by fernando; 13th January 2024 at 04:01 PM. Reason: Please do not quote entire previous posts, just relevant small sections when necessary.

13th January 2024, 09:55 AM	#1
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 174	Thanks for replying. Another point that came to my mind reading your toughts is the worth of an item which surely would have an impact on the treatment it received from its owners. Roger, do you happen to know what a mail shirt would have cost in the late 16th century? It would be interesting to compare to swords. In Styria a Dusegge was 1,5 Gulden, a Hungarian Pallasch 2 Gulden and a Zweihänder was 6 Gulden. Maybe a mail shirt was generally much more expensive and better to store which gave it an obvious benefit for "survival" in comparison to rigid and long swords. A Gulden by the way was about 0,5 to 0,75 Ounces of silver in the HRR of the 16th century.

13th January 2024, 02:07 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Roger, thank you so much for so comprehensively fielding all of these questions, as well as opening this thread! With regard to the queries on whether the character of the metal used in mail might have been a key factor in whether it was badly deteriorated by corrosion or survived in relatively sound condition: One reference I found suggested 'case hardening' . I have little metallurgical knowledge...what exactly is this and does such process have any part in early mail production? On that same note....the mention of 'electroplating' , which seems to be some sort of applying brass or bronze type metal in coating the rings to prevent corrosion. ......is that term correct? seems too modern. I found notes suggesting that often the mail was oiled or 'waxed' between usage. I had heard or mail being cleaned by working it in sand and some sort of agent (urine? was suggested) to remove rust and stabilize the metal. This of course must have been some sort of rudimentary maintenance in the field. It would seem that lack of proper care was an issue in the expeditions to the New World and the weaponry and equipment used by the men, who were not necessarily military and using self supplied items. An individual not well initiated in such matters using some old mail he may have acquired from various means would likely not be attuned to such protocols These situations I think led to the ultimate adoption of leather armor by the Spaniards as better protection from the deadly arrows, which would often easily penetrate mail, especially with compromised metal rings.