Moro keris/kalis ID

David R · 21st November 2024, 12:48 AM

Just a quick note, I have been told there were two Admiral Nelsons, one of them Admiral Lord Nelson and the other later in date not a lord. There are also a lot of Admiral Nelson pubs in the UK.

Ian · 21st November 2024, 03:20 PM

The British and Portuguese have a longstanding friendship and alliance, that has included mutual military assistance at various times, for several centuries. It would not be surprising that a resident of a Portuguese colony (most likely East Timor, Timor L'este) might choose to recognize a prominent British admiral.

I agree that the handwriting is similar to British writing in the 18th and 19th C. That seems consistent with the sword style, which may date to the first half of the 19th C as others have noted. However, the handwriting style is similar to some other European styles of that general era (such as French and Italian). There are differences in writing style between these countries, but the sample is really too small to say definitively where the writer may have been educated.

It is surprising, in some ways, that this piece surfaced in Brisbane, Australia. While Timor is quite close to the northern coast of Australia, notably the Northern Territory and Western Australia, it is some distance from Queensland. Perhaps it was a WWII find by an Australian soldier serving there.

I doubt that this item ever made it to Lord Nelson. As far as I recall, his distinctive service was in the Atlantic and Mediterranean. If the sword had been found in Great Britain, that would seem more persuasive. But turning up in Brisbane makes me think it never got out of the Lesser Sundas, where it ended up in the hands of an Australian who brought it back.

For various reasons it's an intriguing piece. Congratulations on finding such an enigmatic item for your research.

adamb · 21st November 2024, 07:32 PM

Thanks for these observations and opinions on the label. The former owner's wife had an interesting theory: that William Bligh acquired the sword from (Dutch) Timor during his post-“mutiny on the Bounty” sojourn in Kupang and then in England presented it as a gift to Nelson when he served under him.

I’m getting multispectral images taken of the label today and hopefully that will allow me to decipher some more of the writing, but it’s possible the script may be “…it was a present from the Gov of Timor to Admrl Lord Nelson”.

And a direct descendant of Nelson emigrated to the New South Wales colony in the early 1800s; if there really is a Nelson connection, perhaps this is how it ended up here (again, much of the legwork on this has been done already by the former owner’s wife, who very much enjoyed going down a few rabbit holes over this most interesting theory).

It’s possible of course that someone of this era (perhaps in the early NSW colony) simply wrote this false claim about Nelson to enhance the value of the keris. However, as a colleague pointed out to me, if one were to try and pass off a weapon as having belonged to Lord Nelson it would probably make sense to choose a royal navy sabre or some other type of recognisably English blade that Nelson might reasonably have had in his possession, rather than this fairly obscure type of keris from a remote part of island Southeast Asia.

David · 21st November 2024, 09:36 PM

Well, this kris becomes more fascinating by the minute. I will be very intrigued to hear the results of the multispectral imaging Adam, so please do keep us informed.
I will say though that from my understanding this kris blade is more of a type and style that we would see more towards the end of the 19th century than the beginning, with it's fairly wide blade and more rounded tip. It doesn't seem like the kind of kris that would have been made at the end of the 18th century to the start of the 19th. Still, an interesting story that should be followed up to the limits of our abilities i would think.

adamb · 21st November 2024, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, this kris becomes more fascinating by the minute. I will be very intrigued to hear the results of the multispectral imaging Adam, so please do keep us informed.
I will say though that from my understanding this kris blade is more of a type and style that we would see more towards the end of the 19th century than the beginning, with it's fairly wide blade and more rounded tip. It doesn't seem like the kind of kris that would have been made at the end of the 18th century to the start of the 19th. Still, an interesting story that should be followed up to the limits of our abilities i would think.

Thanks David. Indeed if it can be demonstrated that a keris of this particular style/type could not possibly have existed in the late 18th century or early 19th when Nelson was still alive then the most likely explanation is that the label was fabricated in the distant past or is a clever modern forgery.

I know that this forum has seen many discussions about the ages of Moro/Sulu keris/kalis, and that this is a complex subject, with many unknowns, and I further note that the members who have commented on this particular blade so far vary in their opinions on its age, with early to late 1800s all seemingly conceivable at this stage; but, can I ask what support there is to be found in the idea that this keris did actually exist in the timeframe required for the Bligh-Timor-Nelson hypothesis to be at least possible (not talking plausible at this stage, just possible) from a historical perspective?

RobT · 21st November 2024, 11:22 PM

adamb,

I asked about the baca baca and ganja specifically because the one piece baca baca and tightly fitting ganja are generally regarded as later iterations of kris construction. Certainly later in time frame than would be seen on a kris gifted to Admiral Nelson during his active duty.

Sincerely,
RobT

adamb · 21st November 2024, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

adamb,

I asked about the baca baca and ganja specifically because the one piece baca baca and tightly fitting ganja are generally regarded as later iterations of kris construction. Certainly later in time frame than would be seen on a kris gifted to Admiral Nelson during his active duty.

Sincerely,
RobT

Hi RobT yes sorry I forgot to follow that up. It’s difficult to tell, as the plaited hemp wrapping on the hilt comes down almost to the bottom of the blade, but it looks like there is a separate metal band below the wrapping that is attached to the stirrup and that, from a technical point of view, the latter helps keep in place (along with the bindings). I’ll take a photo of this detail and post.

David · 22nd November 2024, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamb

I know that this forum has seen many discussions about the ages of Moro/Sulu keris/kalis, and that this is a complex subject, with many unknowns, and I further note that the members who have commented on this particular blade so far vary in their opinions on its age, with early to late 1800s all seemingly conceivable at this stage; but, can I ask what support there is to be found in the idea that this keris did actually exist in the timeframe required for the Bligh-Timor-Nelson hypothesis to be at least possible (not talking plausible at this stage, just possible) from a historical perspective?

As i already stated, from my understanding of kris/kalis evolution i personally don't see a kris blade of this style and form existing in the time that Lord Nelson was alive. Others may have a different opinion. Kris/kalis certain did exist, but the blades were narrower and the tips pointier.

RobT · 22nd November 2024, 11:50 PM

adamb,

Based on your photos, I strongly suspect that this is a one piece baca baca. If it were a two piece version, the brass strap looping around the stirrup would be visible on your front view photo. Your piece appears to be a variant that I haven’t seen before in that the strap that goes under the hilt wrap seems to have been forge welded to the blade stirrup. Since the tang is covered by the wood of the hilt, a weak magnet should confirm whether or not the strap is ferrous metal and hence one piece. I also agree with David that all the other features of the blade point toward it being made after Admiral Nelson. Offhand I can think of three possible scenarios: One, the label is a complete fabrication. Two, the tabel is authentic and was previously attached to another piece. Three (highly unlikely given the fit), the sheath originally belonged to another kris. Frankly for my part, given that this is a fine looking kris in good condition (with a sheath in good condition to boot), the authenticity of the label is of little importance.

Sincerely,
RobT

21st November 2024, 03:20 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Anglo-Portuguese relations The British and Portuguese have a longstanding friendship and alliance, that has included mutual military assistance at various times, for several centuries. It would not be surprising that a resident of a Portuguese colony (most likely East Timor, Timor L'este) might choose to recognize a prominent British admiral. I agree that the handwriting is similar to British writing in the 18th and 19th C. That seems consistent with the sword style, which may date to the first half of the 19th C as others have noted. However, the handwriting style is similar to some other European styles of that general era (such as French and Italian). There are differences in writing style between these countries, but the sample is really too small to say definitively where the writer may have been educated. It is surprising, in some ways, that this piece surfaced in Brisbane, Australia. While Timor is quite close to the northern coast of Australia, notably the Northern Territory and Western Australia, it is some distance from Queensland. Perhaps it was a WWII find by an Australian soldier serving there. I doubt that this item ever made it to Lord Nelson. As far as I recall, his distinctive service was in the Atlantic and Mediterranean. If the sword had been found in Great Britain, that would seem more persuasive. But turning up in Brisbane makes me think it never got out of the Lesser Sundas, where it ended up in the hands of an Australian who brought it back. For various reasons it's an intriguing piece. Congratulations on finding such an enigmatic item for your research.

21st November 2024, 11:22 PM	#6
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	Baca Baca & Ganja adamb, I asked about the baca baca and ganja specifically because the one piece baca baca and tightly fitting ganja are generally regarded as later iterations of kris construction. Certainly later in time frame than would be seen on a kris gifted to Admiral Nelson during his active duty. Sincerely, RobT

22nd November 2024, 11:50 PM	#9
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	Try a Weak Magnet adamb, Based on your photos, I strongly suspect that this is a one piece baca baca. If it were a two piece version, the brass strap looping around the stirrup would be visible on your front view photo. Your piece appears to be a variant that I haven’t seen before in that the strap that goes under the hilt wrap seems to have been forge welded to the blade stirrup. Since the tang is covered by the wood of the hilt, a weak magnet should confirm whether or not the strap is ferrous metal and hence one piece. I also agree with David that all the other features of the blade point toward it being made after Admiral Nelson. Offhand I can think of three possible scenarios: One, the label is a complete fabrication. Two, the tabel is authentic and was previously attached to another piece. Three (highly unlikely given the fit), the sheath originally belonged to another kris. Frankly for my part, given that this is a fine looking kris in good condition (with a sheath in good condition to boot), the authenticity of the label is of little importance. Sincerely, RobT

21st November 2024, 12:48 AM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,120	Just a quick note, I have been told there were two Admiral Nelsons, one of them Admiral Lord Nelson and the other later in date not a lord. There are also a lot of Admiral Nelson pubs in the UK.

21st November 2024, 07:32 PM	#3
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 20	Thanks for these observations and opinions on the label. The former owner's wife had an interesting theory: that William Bligh acquired the sword from (Dutch) Timor during his post-“mutiny on the Bounty” sojourn in Kupang and then in England presented it as a gift to Nelson when he served under him. I’m getting multispectral images taken of the label today and hopefully that will allow me to decipher some more of the writing, but it’s possible the script may be “…it was a present from the Gov of Timor to Admrl Lord Nelson”. And a direct descendant of Nelson emigrated to the New South Wales colony in the early 1800s; if there really is a Nelson connection, perhaps this is how it ended up here (again, much of the legwork on this has been done already by the former owner’s wife, who very much enjoyed going down a few rabbit holes over this most interesting theory). It’s possible of course that someone of this era (perhaps in the early NSW colony) simply wrote this false claim about Nelson to enhance the value of the keris. However, as a colleague pointed out to me, if one were to try and pass off a weapon as having belonged to Lord Nelson it would probably make sense to choose a royal navy sabre or some other type of recognisably English blade that Nelson might reasonably have had in his possession, rather than this fairly obscure type of keris from a remote part of island Southeast Asia.

21st November 2024, 09:36 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Well, this kris becomes more fascinating by the minute. I will be very intrigued to hear the results of the multispectral imaging Adam, so please do keep us informed. I will say though that from my understanding this kris blade is more of a type and style that we would see more towards the end of the 19th century than the beginning, with it's fairly wide blade and more rounded tip. It doesn't seem like the kind of kris that would have been made at the end of the 18th century to the start of the 19th. Still, an interesting story that should be followed up to the limits of our abilities i would think.