Moro keris/kalis ID

Maurice · 19th November 2024, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

I would agree with Sundag Sulu ,

The ganja being " Iras" is a bit confusing.

I would agree, this is a 19th century piece.

I don't think the ganja is 'iras', but seperate (but very tight / narrow).

David · 19th November 2024, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

I don't think the ganja is 'iras', but seperate (but very tight / narrow).

I agree, this is not gangya iras, just a really nice, tight fit. I also feel this could be Sulu, but don't really see the central fuller as a Malay influence. At least i have a kris which is clearly Moro to my mind that has a very similar central fuller to this one, so i don't see it as a feature that is only found on Malay sundangs. Sorry, but i have never photographed that kris so i can't show it right know.
It does seem to be that the tip has been somewhat reshaped. I can't tell from the photos whether there is any significant loss of length though.
Over all a beautiful, original and complete kris. Nice find Adam!

Sajen · 19th November 2024, 08:56 PM

I am with Raymundo and think the kris is from Mindanao, compare the scabbards, Adams and the one from Ian which is from Sulu.
Very nice kris Adam!

RobT · 19th November 2024, 11:12 PM

adamb,

It is a bit hard to tell for sure from your photos but the baca baca appears to be the one piece variety where the part that goes under the hilt wrap is integral with the part that wraps around the blade. Can you confirm this? From what I have seen, these one piece baca baca are invariably found on kris with tightly fitted ganja (as I believe your example to be) or with ganja iras.

Sincerely,
RobT

adamb · 22nd November 2024, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

adamb,

It is a bit hard to tell for sure from your photos but the baca baca appears to be the one piece variety where the part that goes under the hilt wrap is integral with the part that wraps around the blade. Can you confirm this? From what I have seen, these one piece baca baca are invariably found on kris with tightly fitted ganja (as I believe your example to be) or with ganja iras.

Sincerely,
RobT

Here is a close-up of the relevant feature, RobT.

adamb · 22nd November 2024, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

adamb,

It is a bit hard to tell for sure from your photos but the baca baca appears to be the one piece variety where the part that goes under the hilt wrap is integral with the part that wraps around the blade. Can you confirm this? From what I have seen, these one piece baca baca are invariably found on kris with tightly fitted ganja (as I believe your example to be) or with ganja iras.

Sincerely,
RobT

And another close up

adamb · 19th November 2024, 11:17 PM

Thank you, everyone, for your extremely valuable observations.

To answer one of the above queries, yes, at some stage the scabbard was daubed, rather roughly, in yellow paint. The yellow paint, I should note, is clearly on top of the edges of the old label bearing the inscription and thus quite evidently post-dates it. There is also a crack in the scabbard that runs through this label. The fibre string binding on the scabbard might pre-date the yellow paint job, though I'm not sure about that; there seems to have been an attempt to glue the binding in place on the scabbard after it had been painted, so perhaps the binding was moved to paint below it and then shifted back into place.

Now to the inscription on the label: it's rather odd. Parts of the writing are not well-preserved and I'm working on taking close-up photographs with the hope I can decipher some or all of it in time. However, the part of the inscription that does seem legible to me and some colleagues (and, I should note, was for the most part already deciphered by the former owner's wife who spent considerable time, and ingenuity, reconstructing the text) is as follows:

"...[it was?] a present from the .... [illegible] Timor to Admrl Lord Nelson".

I am told by a historian colleague that the label "is in a neat English secretarial hand of the 19th century...the same style starts to pop up as early as the 1670s and remains quite similar after that".

I do not know what to make of this inscription at the present time, but it is interesting.

There is more writing in black ink, newer and in a different hand, over the yellow paint on the top of the cross-piece, which is as follows:

"Clayton Co", followed by an "M" below it.

I have attached pics of the label, including one in which I've used an image enhancement program to show the writing more clearly, perhaps not very successfully. (Apologies in advance if any images are rotated 90 degrees, I do not why this happens when I upload images to the system).

NB: The former owner of this keris from whom I acquired it bought it at a gun show in Brisbane, Australia, in the 80s or 90s; I'm told that the person who was selling it at that time casually mentioned the label but did not seem to attach much significance to it.

Any insight much appreciated!

Rick · 20th November 2024, 09:04 PM

The script is interesting indeed. If the entire ensemble has been together since it was made, then it is very old as Adm. Nelson died oct 21 1805.

Maybe the weapon was posthumously gifted, maybe not.

David R · 21st November 2024, 12:48 AM

Just a quick note, I have been told there were two Admiral Nelsons, one of them Admiral Lord Nelson and the other later in date not a lord. There are also a lot of Admiral Nelson pubs in the UK.

Ian · 21st November 2024, 03:20 PM

The British and Portuguese have a longstanding friendship and alliance, that has included mutual military assistance at various times, for several centuries. It would not be surprising that a resident of a Portuguese colony (most likely East Timor, Timor L'este) might choose to recognize a prominent British admiral.

I agree that the handwriting is similar to British writing in the 18th and 19th C. That seems consistent with the sword style, which may date to the first half of the 19th C as others have noted. However, the handwriting style is similar to some other European styles of that general era (such as French and Italian). There are differences in writing style between these countries, but the sample is really too small to say definitively where the writer may have been educated.

It is surprising, in some ways, that this piece surfaced in Brisbane, Australia. While Timor is quite close to the northern coast of Australia, notably the Northern Territory and Western Australia, it is some distance from Queensland. Perhaps it was a WWII find by an Australian soldier serving there.

I doubt that this item ever made it to Lord Nelson. As far as I recall, his distinctive service was in the Atlantic and Mediterranean. If the sword had been found in Great Britain, that would seem more persuasive. But turning up in Brisbane makes me think it never got out of the Lesser Sundas, where it ended up in the hands of an Australian who brought it back.

For various reasons it's an intriguing piece. Congratulations on finding such an enigmatic item for your research.

19th November 2024, 08:56 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	I am with Raymundo and think the kris is from Mindanao, compare the scabbards, Adams and the one from Ian which is from Sulu. Very nice kris Adam! Attached Images

19th November 2024, 11:12 PM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	One Piece Baca Baca? adamb, It is a bit hard to tell for sure from your photos but the baca baca appears to be the one piece variety where the part that goes under the hilt wrap is integral with the part that wraps around the blade. Can you confirm this? From what I have seen, these one piece baca baca are invariably found on kris with tightly fitted ganja (as I believe your example to be) or with ganja iras. Sincerely, RobT

19th November 2024, 11:17 PM	#7
adamb Member Join Date: Oct 2024 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 19	Thank you, everyone, for your extremely valuable observations. To answer one of the above queries, yes, at some stage the scabbard was daubed, rather roughly, in yellow paint. The yellow paint, I should note, is clearly on top of the edges of the old label bearing the inscription and thus quite evidently post-dates it. There is also a crack in the scabbard that runs through this label. The fibre string binding on the scabbard might pre-date the yellow paint job, though I'm not sure about that; there seems to have been an attempt to glue the binding in place on the scabbard after it had been painted, so perhaps the binding was moved to paint below it and then shifted back into place. Now to the inscription on the label: it's rather odd. Parts of the writing are not well-preserved and I'm working on taking close-up photographs with the hope I can decipher some or all of it in time. However, the part of the inscription that does seem legible to me and some colleagues (and, I should note, was for the most part already deciphered by the former owner's wife who spent considerable time, and ingenuity, reconstructing the text) is as follows: "...[it was?] a present from the .... [illegible] Timor to Admrl Lord Nelson". I am told by a historian colleague that the label "is in a neat English secretarial hand of the 19th century...the same style starts to pop up as early as the 1670s and remains quite similar after that". I do not know what to make of this inscription at the present time, but it is interesting. There is more writing in black ink, newer and in a different hand, over the yellow paint on the top of the cross-piece, which is as follows: "Clayton Co", followed by an "M" below it. I have attached pics of the label, including one in which I've used an image enhancement program to show the writing more clearly, perhaps not very successfully. (Apologies in advance if any images are rotated 90 degrees, I do not why this happens when I upload images to the system). NB: The former owner of this keris from whom I acquired it bought it at a gun show in Brisbane, Australia, in the 80s or 90s; I'm told that the person who was selling it at that time casually mentioned the label but did not seem to attach much significance to it. Any insight much appreciated! Attached Images

21st November 2024, 03:20 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,360	Anglo-Portuguese relations The British and Portuguese have a longstanding friendship and alliance, that has included mutual military assistance at various times, for several centuries. It would not be surprising that a resident of a Portuguese colony (most likely East Timor, Timor L'este) might choose to recognize a prominent British admiral. I agree that the handwriting is similar to British writing in the 18th and 19th C. That seems consistent with the sword style, which may date to the first half of the 19th C as others have noted. However, the handwriting style is similar to some other European styles of that general era (such as French and Italian). There are differences in writing style between these countries, but the sample is really too small to say definitively where the writer may have been educated. It is surprising, in some ways, that this piece surfaced in Brisbane, Australia. While Timor is quite close to the northern coast of Australia, notably the Northern Territory and Western Australia, it is some distance from Queensland. Perhaps it was a WWII find by an Australian soldier serving there. I doubt that this item ever made it to Lord Nelson. As far as I recall, his distinctive service was in the Atlantic and Mediterranean. If the sword had been found in Great Britain, that would seem more persuasive. But turning up in Brisbane makes me think it never got out of the Lesser Sundas, where it ended up in the hands of an Australian who brought it back. For various reasons it's an intriguing piece. Congratulations on finding such an enigmatic item for your research.

20th November 2024, 09:04 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	The script is interesting indeed. If the entire ensemble has been together since it was made, then it is very old as Adm. Nelson died oct 21 1805. Maybe the weapon was posthumously gifted, maybe not.

21st November 2024, 12:48 AM	#9
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	Just a quick note, I have been told there were two Admiral Nelsons, one of them Admiral Lord Nelson and the other later in date not a lord. There are also a lot of Admiral Nelson pubs in the UK.