Moro keris/kalis ID

[David]

Well, this kris becomes more fascinating by the minute. I will be very intrigued to hear the results of the multispectral imaging Adam, so please do keep us informed.
I will say though that from my understanding this kris blade is more of a type and style that we would see more towards the end of the 19th century than the beginning, with it's fairly wide blade and more rounded tip. It doesn't seem like the kind of kris that would have been made at the end of the 18th century to the start of the 19th. Still, an interesting story that should be followed up to the limits of our abilities i would think.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by David

Well, this kris becomes more fascinating by the minute. I will be very intrigued to hear the results of the multispectral imaging Adam, so please do keep us informed.
I will say though that from my understanding this kris blade is more of a type and style that we would see more towards the end of the 19th century than the beginning, with it's fairly wide blade and more rounded tip. It doesn't seem like the kind of kris that would have been made at the end of the 18th century to the start of the 19th. Still, an interesting story that should be followed up to the limits of our abilities i would think.

Thanks David. Indeed if it can be demonstrated that a keris of this particular style/type could not possibly have existed in the late 18th century or early 19th when Nelson was still alive then the most likely explanation is that the label was fabricated in the distant past or is a clever modern forgery.

I know that this forum has seen many discussions about the ages of Moro/Sulu keris/kalis, and that this is a complex subject, with many unknowns, and I further note that the members who have commented on this particular blade so far vary in their opinions on its age, with early to late 1800s all seemingly conceivable at this stage; but, can I ask what support there is to be found in the idea that this keris did actually exist in the timeframe required for the Bligh-Timor-Nelson hypothesis to be at least possible (not talking plausible at this stage, just possible) from a historical perspective?

[RobT]

adamb,

I asked about the baca baca and ganja specifically because the one piece baca baca and tightly fitting ganja are generally regarded as later iterations of kris construction. Certainly later in time frame than would be seen on a kris gifted to Admiral Nelson during his active duty.

Sincerely,
RobT

[adamb]

Originally Posted by RobT

adamb,

I asked about the baca baca and ganja specifically because the one piece baca baca and tightly fitting ganja are generally regarded as later iterations of kris construction. Certainly later in time frame than would be seen on a kris gifted to Admiral Nelson during his active duty.

Sincerely,
RobT

Hi RobT yes sorry I forgot to follow that up. It’s difficult to tell, as the plaited hemp wrapping on the hilt comes down almost to the bottom of the blade, but it looks like there is a separate metal band below the wrapping that is attached to the stirrup and that, from a technical point of view, the latter helps keep in place (along with the bindings). I’ll take a photo of this detail and post.

[David]

Originally Posted by adamb

I know that this forum has seen many discussions about the ages of Moro/Sulu keris/kalis, and that this is a complex subject, with many unknowns, and I further note that the members who have commented on this particular blade so far vary in their opinions on its age, with early to late 1800s all seemingly conceivable at this stage; but, can I ask what support there is to be found in the idea that this keris did actually exist in the timeframe required for the Bligh-Timor-Nelson hypothesis to be at least possible (not talking plausible at this stage, just possible) from a historical perspective?

As i already stated, from my understanding of kris/kalis evolution i personally don't see a kris blade of this style and form existing in the time that Lord Nelson was alive. Others may have a different opinion. Kris/kalis certain did exist, but the blades were narrower and the tips pointier.

[RobT]

adamb,

Based on your photos, I strongly suspect that this is a one piece baca baca. If it were a two piece version, the brass strap looping around the stirrup would be visible on your front view photo. Your piece appears to be a variant that I haven’t seen before in that the strap that goes under the hilt wrap seems to have been forge welded to the blade stirrup. Since the tang is covered by the wood of the hilt, a weak magnet should confirm whether or not the strap is ferrous metal and hence one piece. I also agree with David that all the other features of the blade point toward it being made after Admiral Nelson. Offhand I can think of three possible scenarios: One, the label is a complete fabrication. Two, the tabel is authentic and was previously attached to another piece. Three (highly unlikely given the fit), the sheath originally belonged to another kris. Frankly for my part, given that this is a fine looking kris in good condition (with a sheath in good condition to boot), the authenticity of the label is of little importance.

Sincerely,
RobT

[xasterix]

I believe that the gangya may be a super-tightly fitted two-piece; I've encountered such pieces before- on visual, looks one-piece, but when I reset / apply heat gun, I would get a surprise when the tree adhesive bleeds out of a previously invisible gangya line.

The one-piece kris and kalis I've encountered tend to be longer, markedly less meticulous on the carving patterns for the katik and elephant figural, and have larger hilts due to having larger tangs.

I agree with RobT's possible mixed-up scabbard scenario. I believe this piece is legit pre-1900, it's just a toss-up regarding when, since I don't have any visibility on a provenanced similar piece that has a late 1700s attribution; I would be more confident to think of it as early-mid 1800s.

Admiral Lord Nelson died on 1805. Another possibility: the kris may have been made turn-of-century 1800s or up to before his death on 1805 (or a little beyond even), and intended as a gift to him. Communication was still very slow in that era; whoever bought it in PH, or secured it as a souvenir, may not have known of his death yet, hence the label.

[Maurice]

The reason why I asked about the yellow/gold colour dye, is that I have seen several old Borneo swords (parang ilangs, curved - and jimpul like swords) with the same golden colour painted on their scabbards.
I've never seen that on scabbards of other regions of the Indonesian archipellago. So maybe, just maybe, it could be that yours visited that area a long time ago too.....