Awesome Jacobite period basket hilt broadsword

[Jim McDougall]

I'm surely no expert on these Capn, but thank you! I do clearly have a passion for them, and though I have tried to study them for many years, their history is complex and elusive.

In reading through resources trying to get 'up to speed' here, I wanted to address some of the comments thus far.

It is known that only some 190 swords were recovered from the field at Culloden, but over 1800 men were killed, of over 6000 troops. In the aftermath, there were paltry numbers of swords surrendered, 25 here, 50 there. Scholars insist the numbers of swords recorded were relatively few compared to muskets.
However, some insights into the battle are found in "How the Scots Invented the Modern World", A.Herman ,2001:
pp.152,53;
paraphrasing the author, ' the clans maddened by the shelling, could no longer be held back and charged like wildcats into the British lines...most came too fast to use the muskets they were carrying....in thier bloodlust they threw their firearms away'.

'..the Scots hacked at muskets with such maniacal fury that down the line men could hear the clang of swprd on barrel'.

"...clansmen blindly hacking and thrusting as choking smoke closed around them....dreadful to see swords circling in the air as they were raised from strokes'.

Clearly, while many writers presume from records that the numbers of muskets known to have been with the Jacobite forces, that these were the predominant arm......the Scots would not have simply carried a musket....without their faithful basket hilts.
As seen here, in the fury of battle, they deferred to their distinct weapon, the sword.......'and threw muskets away'.

So what then became of the probably considerable number of swords of the fallen. Many of these men were of closely related clans, and these swords were inherently sacred, so in my opinion, many of these were taken by thier relatives and among those who fled the field.

Then as noted by the author, (p.150),
"..warriors hid their swords and targes in the heath, hoping that they or their children would remember where they had buried them'.

In most cases, these were removed to more favorable hiding places.
The 'disarming act' of that year proscribed not only the weapons, but Highland dress, even bagpipes.....for generations, over 50 years.

Only in the British regiments were swords permitted, and these, as Mark has described, were often produced in the garrison towns, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Stirling, and the decoration in the basket hilts became rudimentary, many hilts becoming 'munition grade'.

With the wonderfully roughly done decoration in this example of Mark's, it seems to be of Glasgow form, but not of the munitions grade forms of post Culloden.....here noting that Glasgow and Stirling still produced worthy hilts for British cavalry officers in the Highland dragoon regiments.

The first Jacobite rebellions began in 1689, with uprisings in 1715 and 1719, and while Glasgow became a primary garrison town in these times, there were hammermen in the environs who would fashion thier own versions of these well known hilts. These men were of course outside the records of established hammermen.

In an earlier post, it was asked whether any Scots produced blades. In the writing of Charles Whitelaw (1934), the venerable sage of the study of Scottish arms, I found two cases which he thought were NOT imported blades.

These were (p.309, plate IV#4; plate V, #2,#3)
Both were basket hilts by W. Allen (Walter Allen of Glasgow, later Stirling).
He suggested these blades were by Allen, and not imported.
Both blades were with the favored ANDREA FERARA name, which was of course typically on the German imports, so it is curious how he arrived at this conclusion, but is noted here regarding the possibility of Scottish blade production.

[toaster5sqn]

M Eley, regarding your interest in knowing more about the Scottish fencing style the main 2 references would be:

Thomas Page's "The Use of the Broad Sword" published in 1746 and availiable online at https://linacreschoolofdefence.org/L...Page/Page.html

And Donald McBane's "The Expert Sword-man's Companion" published 1728 and currently available in print in a modern edit by Jared Kirby.
Donald McBane is primarily a small sword instructor but he does devote a small chapter to the broad sword.

Both authors only touch briefly on the use of the targe with the broad sword which has led to the Cateran Society https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/ turning to the additional resource of the Penicuik Sketches in an attempt to recreate the system.

Robert

[M ELEY]

Jim, that is an amazing description of the battlefield at Culloden, both exciting and terrible in the slaughter. It would have been a sight to see. What I found interesting is that there were no clear lines as to who was friend or foe to either side. Jacobites were, after all, made up of many Scots (both from the Highlands and some Lowlanders, many Irish, the French forces who supported the Bonnie Prince and a mishmash of Englishmen and others who hated the Hanoverian king.

Not all Highlanders supported the Jacobites. The two main branches of the Clan Campbell, for instance, fought against each other on rival sides. I always wondered how that worked for the clans that supported the king having to surrender their pipes, weapons after they fought for him!

I'm assuming from the reports of the battle that the vast majority of casualty at the '45 were Scots, though, as I've never heard of any French weapons being picked up off of the field at Culloden.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jim, that is an amazing description of the battlefield at Culloden, both exciting and terrible in the slaughter. It would have been a sight to see. What I found interesting is that there were no clear lines as to who was friend or foe to either side. Jacobites were, after all, made up of many Scots (both from the Highlands and some Lowlanders, many Irish, the French forces who supported the Bonnie Prince and a mishmash of Englishmen and others who hated the Hanoverian king.

Not all Highlanders supported the Jacobites. The two main branches of the Clan Campbell, for instance, fought against each other on rival sides. I always wondered how that worked for the clans that supported the king having to surrender their pipes, weapons after they fought for him!

I'm assuming from the reports of the battle that the vast majority of casualty at the '45 were Scots, though, as I've never heard of any French weapons being picked up off of the field at Culloden.

Actually the CB (=casus belli) for individuals varied, and mostly the reason was protest of the 1707 combining of Scottish and English parliaments.
Naturally there were Jacobites (those in support of the Stuart right to the throne) but many had other reasons. You're right, there were Highlanders, Lowlanders, English, Irish, and a few French. There were supposed to be many more, but only small numbers of French were present.

The muskets carried by the Jacobite forces were primarily Spanish, French and numbers of captured English examples. As noted, while they were carrying these, the pent up fury of the Scots compelled them to charge wildly, throwing these guns aside to wield the deadly broadswords.

Good note on the proscription of Highland dress and weapons, and how it would have effected the Campbells. Actually there seems to have been some degree of circumvention through military involvement in British Highland forces.

[Jim McDougall]

Some years ago while researching Rob Roy, I found that the swords actually used in the fight between Rob Roy and an opponent much younger , Charles Stuart of Ardshiel, had been restored by an Edinburgh master of arms. I have yet to find notes but what I can find so far,

While Rob Roy was born in Stirling regions, he was primarily in Highland regions in Argyll, where his now legendary 'cattle' enterprises took place. He was born in 1671, and was very distinctly Jacobite, participating in the early uprisings in 1689, and years later in 1715 and 19.
His sword was of 'Glasgow' form, and from what I have seen of pictures of it (pending) the styling, and more importantly, the piercings, are remarkably similar to those on Mark's example.

I had thought the rough apertures on the right guard were holes drilled too close to the edge, but as seen on the MacGregor sword, were intentional designs. The curious pierced device with two holes and triangular figure below are interestingly similar to the MacGregor sword also.

The Jacobites apparently had numerous 'secret symbols', oak leaves, thistles, etc. and it has been my opinion that in many cases, these were cryptically stylized for covert recognition. This may account for the difficulty in accurately describing these devices. In some cases authors will 'suggest' what these are for the sake of a working term in discussion, but more history of them are wanting.

It has been suggested that the Rob Roy sword (owned by a West Highland family in Moidart) dates from late 1680s-90s).
The Stuart sword is from a Borders family and is a later backsword.
The duel concerned the mens' activity in the Battle of Sheriffmuir 1715, and while it concluded with no fatality, Roy was wounded, and that wound eventually caused his death in 1734.

Therefore I suggest this is a Highland basket hilt, in the Glasgow manner, dating from 1690-1710. It is unlikely this was a 'garrison' make, and probably by a regional 'sword slipper' imitating the well known makers in Glasgow. Walter Allen (later Stirling) was a Glasgow maker who used these kinds of pierced devices, so clearly these were around before the '15 as his family were active there since 1680s.

The absence of the wrist guard seems to fit as well, as these period of 1680s-90s precedes the addition of the wrist guards (called a 'backward').

While the Allen hilts were signed, this one unsigned was probably by perhaps a journeyman working toward 'hammerman' status. The blade being unmarked may suggest it could be local if the Whitelaw theory of Walter Allen producing his own blades is correct, as it shows some blade activity in these regions probably existed.

The photos are:
A 'Glasgow' basket hilt c.1715+ ...note more conical pommel
This is from "Early Scottish Edged Weapons and Militaria" H.Menard, in 'Book of Edged Weapons", 1997, ed. George Weatherly, p.178,
it is noted "...it appears that Scottish armorers within a geographic area usually fabricated similar style guards like Pennsylvania rifle makers".

Next is of course, Mark's fantastic example of a Glasgow type hilt with early type pommel latter 17th c. and resemblances to the Rob Roy sword of that period. Notice how the stylized 'thistle' (?) in his example is completely pierced as one aperture (as per Mazansky, family A example) while the later Glasgow form is two holes above a triangle.

[M ELEY]

Jim, you are amazing!! Thank you for this incredible back information and the comparison to MacGregor's sword is humbling! I wasn't aware Rob Roy's weapon still survived! I had also wondered about the symbols used on these pieces, but understand that there is a lot of guesswork when it comes to meaning versus design. Perhaps each smith had their own 'totum' or variation however subtle, to indicate clan, region, affiliation. As much of this was 'forbidden' during the time of the troubles (again, if one suspects they represented more than just decor), we may never know. Secret societies, Freemasonry and various other mystical clubs were alive and well during this time period after all!

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Capn, this was very exciting research!!! While my comparisons to the Rob Roy sword may seem optimistic to some, I think there is more than reasonable plausibility to place your sword in these Argyll regions in that late 17th century period.

There was of course elements of totemic, occult, arcane and other symbolisms imbued in makers markings etc. and the Jacobite symbols were simply used broadly by devotees of this broad movement. Most of the makers who signed their hilts just used their own initials, these were the Simpsons and Allen's as well as Thomas Gemmill. I think there were others but cannot specify offhand.

The symbolic devices used in the decoration of hilts were not specific to any one maker, but as often the case, they were individually drawn to favor particular themes. Case in point were the Stirling hilts, which tended to be more 'designed' with more elaborate styling. The Glasgow were a bit more rudimentary following structural form with piercings in the plates.

Secret societies were of course rampant in these times, and elements of magic, occult, etc. mixed with Masonic, religious and political elements.
These were times of intrigue, of all kinds, and these wonderful swords hold the secrets and tales of them!

[M ELEY]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

M Eley, regarding your interest in knowing more about the Scottish fencing style the main 2 references would be:

Thomas Page's "The Use of the Broad Sword" published in 1746 and availiable online at https://linacreschoolofdefence.org/L...Page/Page.html

And Donald McBane's "The Expert Sword-man's Companion" published 1728 and currently available in print in a modern edit by Jared Kirby.
Donald McBane is primarily a small sword instructor but he does devote a small chapter to the broad sword.

Both authors only touch briefly on the use of the targe with the broad sword which has led to the Cateran Society https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/ turning to the additional resource of the Penicuik Sketches in an attempt to recreate the system.

Robert

Hello Robert and welcome to the Forum! Thank you very much for these references. I will assuredly get a copy to try and understand the nuances of Scottish fencing with the basket versus the typical rapier format. Much appreciated!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

M Eley, regarding your interest in knowing more about the Scottish fencing style the main 2 references would be:

Thomas Page's "The Use of the Broad Sword" published in 1746 and availiable online at https://linacreschoolofdefence.org/L...Page/Page.html

And Donald McBane's "The Expert Sword-man's Companion" published 1728 and currently available in print in a modern edit by Jared Kirby.
Donald McBane is primarily a small sword instructor but he does devote a small chapter to the broad sword.

Both authors only touch briefly on the use of the targe with the broad sword which has led to the Cateran Society https://cateransociety.wordpress.com/ turning to the additional resource of the Penicuik Sketches in an attempt to recreate the system.

Robert

These are excellent references Robert! It is interesting that these masters approached 'fencing' but more in the sense of dueling and the small sword and rapier. It seems that 'fencing' is perhaps a misnomer as far as the actual use of the Scottish broadsword, and that actual combat protocol was most likely not present in anything other than familiarity in movements.

Sir William Hope was the most prolific writer on 'fencing' in the late 17th into early 18th century ("Complete Fencing Master", 1697) and his contemporary William Machrie also wrote on fencing about that time as well as Donald McBane (as you well point out).

It seems the most commonly thought of fencing writer was Henry Angelo, but he did not write until 1790s.

It would seem that, swordsman that he was, Rob Roy would have been familiar with Hope, Machrie and McBane, and Hope was a proponent of the duel (he wrote outspokenly in 1711 for this), which would come into play when the MacGregor vs. Stuart duel took place c.1730.

[Battara]

Once again Jim, I bow in your presence!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Battara

Once again Jim, I bow in your presence!

Wow Jose!! very nice to say, but no need, I walk among giants here, and we all have areas that we have chosen as favorites. I'm just so glad Mark posted this so I could revisit these things I've studied off and on for many decades..
I'm totally still learning and look forward to input from others on these Scottish topics.
Thank you so much my friend!