Awesome Jacobite period basket hilt broadsword

colin henshaw · 13th September 2021, 09:24 AM

Great sword, Mark. Congratulations !

M ELEY · 13th September 2021, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Great sword, Mark. Congratulations !

Thank you, Colin!

M ELEY · 13th September 2021, 06:05 PM

Here's the whole sword plus my 'S' guard basket for comparison of size, grip wrap, etc. Note this other basket also lacks the 'additional rear guard' bars.

I hadn't noticed until I was looking at the pics that my new broadsword blade is set at a slight angle to the hilt, as evident in the second pic below. This is again an early feature and I begin to wonder if this might place the dating closer to c.1700!!

M ELEY · 13th September 2021, 06:06 PM

Still more. What really speaks to me about these pieces was the turbulent time in which they were created. The old ribbon-hilt style of basket was transitioning into these forms and after the '45 Rebellion, baskets would rapidly become plainer, more functional. Gone would be the heart piercings, merlons and square cuts found on these types. Compare a Drury basket of the Blackwatch ca. 1770 for comparison (no less magnificent, just not the same decor).

Just as intriging are the sheer numer of baskets absent from the field of Culloden after the battle. In other words, despite the massive numbers of fallen Scots, others retrieved their baskets and hid them away. Those that were recovered, perhaps 150 or so, were taken as war trophies or chopped up/destroyed. A large grouping of them were made into an iron fence surrounding some aristocrat's estate, the ultimate insult! I'm glad this survivor came into my collection!

Battara · 14th September 2021, 12:06 AM

........and some had their blades broken down and used to make Scottish dirks.

M ELEY · 14th September 2021, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

........and some had their blades broken down and used to make Scottish dirks.

Excellent point as well. I forgot to thank you for your insight on the original peened tang. I know so many of these baskets saw major makeovers and repairs over the years (bars cut out, replaced pommels, repalced grip materials, blade shortening/rforging, etc. In a way, those points alone attest to how important and cherished these items were.

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2021, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

........and some had their blades broken down and used to make Scottish dirks.

After Culloden (1746), the Scots were forbidden to have weapons, or wear Highland dress, with these proscriptions in place for nearly 50 years. While swords were permitted in degree of course in the case of the Highland regiments in the British army, none were permitted to civilians.

The exception was the dirk, which was considered a utility knife for hunting etc. and as such became extremely popular. Many Scots took down heirloom blades to fashion dirks which were already in use, but their popularity increased accordingly. This was likely of course the end of many wonderful family basket hilts, and one wonders how many of the hilts were kept until the day they could once again have a full length blade.

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2021, 04:24 AM

Just as intriging are the sheer numer of baskets absent from the field of Culloden after the battle. In other words, despite the massive numbers of fallen Scots, others retrieved their baskets and hid them away. Those that were recovered, perhaps 150 or so, were taken as war trophies or chopped up/destroyed. A large grouping of them were made into an iron fence surrounding some aristocrat's estate, the ultimate insult! I'm glad this survivor came into my collection![/QUOTE]

"...frequently a family heirloom-often in its second or third hilting-the Highlanders 'sword was far more than just a weapon. The great symbolic value of these arms was not lost upon the Duke of Cumberland. A bounty was paid from the royal purse of one shilling for every broadsword picked up from the battlefield".
"Scottish Swords from the Battlefield
of Culloden"
E. Andrew Mowbray, 1971
Text and photos from records
of Lord Archibald Campbell, 1894
This is EXACTLY what the clans dreaded, and why I believe the precious heirlooms were carried away by clansmen. Of the 190 swords recovered from the field, 150 of them were given to the master of ordnance, John Hay, 4th Marquis of Tweeddale...........who then had points broken off and hilts removed, taking these amazing blades made into a travesty of poor taste of a fence at his estate at Twickenham House.

The house was later demolished (1888) and the blades sold to a scrap dealer, then later acquired by Lord Archibald Campbell, who wrote this in 1894.

Images of some of the blades from the terrible fence, and in an article about a Stirling hilt believed of Walter Allen, found alone and with damage to the pommel ring believed from said removal.

M ELEY · 16th September 2021, 09:32 AM

It is shocking to think about how many of these baskets we're lost, between the aftermath of 1745, the outlawing of swords and the unfortunate (but necessary) cut-down of swords to make dirks. That story of the remnants of the battle being made into a fence makes me boil inside! Just like the soldiers after WWII shoveling piles and piles of katana, tachi, waks, tantos into blast furnaces! The ancestral items gone forever! Why not just lock them away for later generations. We stored munitions, right? It makes me sick...

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2021, 05:50 PM

Capn, as we, along with so many others, are passionate students of history and these amazing weapons, I share your outrage intensely. It is impossible to study these things without being exposed to the sheer ugliness of war and the politics and the flaws in humanity that cause it.

The disarming of the Scots was not to seize and prohibit their arms, but more broadly to break their spirit and take their identity. Many of those who fought with the Jacobites at Culloden were fighting to preserve the deteriorating clan system and the social entity of Episcopalism .

Your analogy of the confiscation of the Japanese weaponry, which included many thousands of heirloom Samurai swords is well placed, and very much like this with the Scottish broadswords after Culloden.
The Samurai's sword, was the very soul of the warrior who wielded it, and as much as they loved these cherished weapons, a Samurai would break it rather than be disgraced by handing it over to an enemy.

This was, as I earlier noted, the case with the Scot's broadsword. It is clear that Cumberland's exact purpose in offering bounty for these was maliciously intended, and the heinous degradation of them being dismantled and placed in the fence of a political stooge is part of the disdain held for the Jacobites by these 'victors'.

However, as sickened I am, as well as you, in the destruction of these amazing weapons, I would note that I choose to remember the high side of these situations. With the Japanese swords, there were many tens of thousands of these weapons taken away as souvenirs by American and allied soldiers. Most of these were the treasured Samurai examples, but even the more pedestrian military types were taken as well.
For many years, there have been Japanese figures who traveled the US to repurchase these important swords, to be returned to thier homeland and properly restored and documented. In many cases, these were returned to their respective families. I can recall one instance where a katana with remarkable history and provenance was taken personally to Japan by a collector, and given to the family. Quite literally, a small temple was built to hold the sword.
I spoke to one of these traveling repatriation figures on one occasion, and he showed me the incredible examples he had acquired that day, some were over 600 years old! He actually had tears as he reverently showed me one example.

So returning to the dismantling of the Scottish broadswords to make dirks.
Think of it this way, rather than suffering the disgrace perpetrated by Cumberland and many of the victors at Culloden......many of these precious swords were dismounted, and the blades survived in the families as the permitted dirks. In many cases, the hilts, so many carrying the symbolism and heritage of the family also survived...but no longer weapons, just art or a family heirloom, not subject to confiscation.

I would venture to say that this is the very reason we have so many Scottish basket hilts (relatively of course) that survive today. While many were hidden away in entirety (as your wonderful example) or perhaps taken overseas, numbers of these remaining hilts were likely remounted with old blades in the 19th century with the new fascination with Scottish dress and items.

The blades that were intended to be disgraced in this travesty of a 'fence', however, stood proudly as the warriors who wielded them on that fateful day at Culloden. Though wounded, that pride could not be taken from them, instead it empowered their legacy.

13th September 2021, 06:05 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	More pics Jacobite era baskets Here's the whole sword plus my 'S' guard basket for comparison of size, grip wrap, etc. Note this other basket also lacks the 'additional rear guard' bars. I hadn't noticed until I was looking at the pics that my new broadsword blade is set at a slight angle to the hilt, as evident in the second pic below. This is again an early feature and I begin to wonder if this might place the dating closer to c.1700!! Attached Images Last edited by M ELEY; 13th September 2021 at 06:20 PM.

13th September 2021, 06:06 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Still more. What really speaks to me about these pieces was the turbulent time in which they were created. The old ribbon-hilt style of basket was transitioning into these forms and after the '45 Rebellion, baskets would rapidly become plainer, more functional. Gone would be the heart piercings, merlons and square cuts found on these types. Compare a Drury basket of the Blackwatch ca. 1770 for comparison (no less magnificent, just not the same decor). Just as intriging are the sheer numer of baskets absent from the field of Culloden after the battle. In other words, despite the massive numbers of fallen Scots, others retrieved their baskets and hid them away. Those that were recovered, perhaps 150 or so, were taken as war trophies or chopped up/destroyed. A large grouping of them were made into an iron fence surrounding some aristocrat's estate, the ultimate insult! I'm glad this survivor came into my collection! Attached Images Last edited by M ELEY; 14th September 2021 at 12:46 AM.

16th September 2021, 04:24 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Just as intriging are the sheer numer of baskets absent from the field of Culloden after the battle. In other words, despite the massive numbers of fallen Scots, others retrieved their baskets and hid them away. Those that were recovered, perhaps 150 or so, were taken as war trophies or chopped up/destroyed. A large grouping of them were made into an iron fence surrounding some aristocrat's estate, the ultimate insult! I'm glad this survivor came into my collection![/QUOTE] "...frequently a family heirloom-often in its second or third hilting-the Highlanders 'sword was far more than just a weapon. The great symbolic value of these arms was not lost upon the Duke of Cumberland. A bounty was paid from the royal purse of one shilling for every broadsword picked up from the battlefield". "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield of Culloden" E. Andrew Mowbray, 1971 Text and photos from records of Lord Archibald Campbell, 1894 This is EXACTLY what the clans dreaded, and why I believe the precious heirlooms were carried away by clansmen. Of the 190 swords recovered from the field, 150 of them were given to the master of ordnance, John Hay, 4th Marquis of Tweeddale...........who then had points broken off and hilts removed, taking these amazing blades made into a travesty of poor taste of a fence at his estate at Twickenham House. The house was later demolished (1888) and the blades sold to a scrap dealer, then later acquired by Lord Archibald Campbell, who wrote this in 1894. Images of some of the blades from the terrible fence, and in an article about a Stirling hilt believed of Walter Allen, found alone and with damage to the pommel ring believed from said removal. Attached Images

13th September 2021, 09:24 AM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Great sword, Mark. Congratulations !

14th September 2021, 12:06 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	........and some had their blades broken down and used to make Scottish dirks.

16th September 2021, 09:32 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	It is shocking to think about how many of these baskets we're lost, between the aftermath of 1745, the outlawing of swords and the unfortunate (but necessary) cut-down of swords to make dirks. That story of the remnants of the battle being made into a fence makes me boil inside! Just like the soldiers after WWII shoveling piles and piles of katana, tachi, waks, tantos into blast furnaces! The ancestral items gone forever! Why not just lock them away for later generations. We stored munitions, right? It makes me sick...

16th September 2021, 05:50 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Capn, as we, along with so many others, are passionate students of history and these amazing weapons, I share your outrage intensely. It is impossible to study these things without being exposed to the sheer ugliness of war and the politics and the flaws in humanity that cause it. The disarming of the Scots was not to seize and prohibit their arms, but more broadly to break their spirit and take their identity. Many of those who fought with the Jacobites at Culloden were fighting to preserve the deteriorating clan system and the social entity of Episcopalism . Your analogy of the confiscation of the Japanese weaponry, which included many thousands of heirloom Samurai swords is well placed, and very much like this with the Scottish broadswords after Culloden. The Samurai's sword, was the very soul of the warrior who wielded it, and as much as they loved these cherished weapons, a Samurai would break it rather than be disgraced by handing it over to an enemy. This was, as I earlier noted, the case with the Scot's broadsword. It is clear that Cumberland's exact purpose in offering bounty for these was maliciously intended, and the heinous degradation of them being dismantled and placed in the fence of a political stooge is part of the disdain held for the Jacobites by these 'victors'. However, as sickened I am, as well as you, in the destruction of these amazing weapons, I would note that I choose to remember the high side of these situations. With the Japanese swords, there were many tens of thousands of these weapons taken away as souvenirs by American and allied soldiers. Most of these were the treasured Samurai examples, but even the more pedestrian military types were taken as well. For many years, there have been Japanese figures who traveled the US to repurchase these important swords, to be returned to thier homeland and properly restored and documented. In many cases, these were returned to their respective families. I can recall one instance where a katana with remarkable history and provenance was taken personally to Japan by a collector, and given to the family. Quite literally, a small temple was built to hold the sword. I spoke to one of these traveling repatriation figures on one occasion, and he showed me the incredible examples he had acquired that day, some were over 600 years old! He actually had tears as he reverently showed me one example. So returning to the dismantling of the Scottish broadswords to make dirks. Think of it this way, rather than suffering the disgrace perpetrated by Cumberland and many of the victors at Culloden......many of these precious swords were dismounted, and the blades survived in the families as the permitted dirks. In many cases, the hilts, so many carrying the symbolism and heritage of the family also survived...but no longer weapons, just art or a family heirloom, not subject to confiscation. I would venture to say that this is the very reason we have so many Scottish basket hilts (relatively of course) that survive today. While many were hidden away in entirety (as your wonderful example) or perhaps taken overseas, numbers of these remaining hilts were likely remounted with old blades in the 19th century with the new fascination with Scottish dress and items. The blades that were intended to be disgraced in this travesty of a 'fence', however, stood proudly as the warriors who wielded them on that fateful day at Culloden. Though wounded, that pride could not be taken from them, instead it empowered their legacy.