Awesome Jacobite period basket hilt broadsword

M ELEY · 15th September 2021, 03:14 PM

Jim, that is an amazing description of the battlefield at Culloden, both exciting and terrible in the slaughter. It would have been a sight to see. What I found interesting is that there were no clear lines as to who was friend or foe to either side. Jacobites were, after all, made up of many Scots (both from the Highlands and some Lowlanders, many Irish, the French forces who supported the Bonnie Prince and a mishmash of Englishmen and others who hated the Hanoverian king.

Not all Highlanders supported the Jacobites. The two main branches of the Clan Campbell, for instance, fought against each other on rival sides. I always wondered how that worked for the clans that supported the king having to surrender their pipes, weapons after they fought for him!

I'm assuming from the reports of the battle that the vast majority of casualty at the '45 were Scots, though, as I've never heard of any French weapons being picked up off of the field at Culloden.

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2021, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jim, that is an amazing description of the battlefield at Culloden, both exciting and terrible in the slaughter. It would have been a sight to see. What I found interesting is that there were no clear lines as to who was friend or foe to either side. Jacobites were, after all, made up of many Scots (both from the Highlands and some Lowlanders, many Irish, the French forces who supported the Bonnie Prince and a mishmash of Englishmen and others who hated the Hanoverian king.

Not all Highlanders supported the Jacobites. The two main branches of the Clan Campbell, for instance, fought against each other on rival sides. I always wondered how that worked for the clans that supported the king having to surrender their pipes, weapons after they fought for him!

I'm assuming from the reports of the battle that the vast majority of casualty at the '45 were Scots, though, as I've never heard of any French weapons being picked up off of the field at Culloden.

Actually the CB (=casus belli) for individuals varied, and mostly the reason was protest of the 1707 combining of Scottish and English parliaments.
Naturally there were Jacobites (those in support of the Stuart right to the throne) but many had other reasons. You're right, there were Highlanders, Lowlanders, English, Irish, and a few French. There were supposed to be many more, but only small numbers of French were present.

The muskets carried by the Jacobite forces were primarily Spanish, French and numbers of captured English examples. As noted, while they were carrying these, the pent up fury of the Scots compelled them to charge wildly, throwing these guns aside to wield the deadly broadswords.

Good note on the proscription of Highland dress and weapons, and how it would have effected the Campbells. Actually there seems to have been some degree of circumvention through military involvement in British Highland forces.

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2021, 07:27 PM

Some years ago while researching Rob Roy, I found that the swords actually used in the fight between Rob Roy and an opponent much younger , Charles Stuart of Ardshiel, had been restored by an Edinburgh master of arms. I have yet to find notes but what I can find so far,

While Rob Roy was born in Stirling regions, he was primarily in Highland regions in Argyll, where his now legendary 'cattle' enterprises took place. He was born in 1671, and was very distinctly Jacobite, participating in the early uprisings in 1689, and years later in 1715 and 19.
His sword was of 'Glasgow' form, and from what I have seen of pictures of it (pending) the styling, and more importantly, the piercings, are remarkably similar to those on Mark's example.

I had thought the rough apertures on the right guard were holes drilled too close to the edge, but as seen on the MacGregor sword, were intentional designs. The curious pierced device with two holes and triangular figure below are interestingly similar to the MacGregor sword also.

The Jacobites apparently had numerous 'secret symbols', oak leaves, thistles, etc. and it has been my opinion that in many cases, these were cryptically stylized for covert recognition. This may account for the difficulty in accurately describing these devices. In some cases authors will 'suggest' what these are for the sake of a working term in discussion, but more history of them are wanting.

It has been suggested that the Rob Roy sword (owned by a West Highland family in Moidart) dates from late 1680s-90s).
The Stuart sword is from a Borders family and is a later backsword.
The duel concerned the mens' activity in the Battle of Sheriffmuir 1715, and while it concluded with no fatality, Roy was wounded, and that wound eventually caused his death in 1734.

Therefore I suggest this is a Highland basket hilt, in the Glasgow manner, dating from 1690-1710. It is unlikely this was a 'garrison' make, and probably by a regional 'sword slipper' imitating the well known makers in Glasgow. Walter Allen (later Stirling) was a Glasgow maker who used these kinds of pierced devices, so clearly these were around before the '15 as his family were active there since 1680s.

The absence of the wrist guard seems to fit as well, as these period of 1680s-90s precedes the addition of the wrist guards (called a 'backward').

While the Allen hilts were signed, this one unsigned was probably by perhaps a journeyman working toward 'hammerman' status. The blade being unmarked may suggest it could be local if the Whitelaw theory of Walter Allen producing his own blades is correct, as it shows some blade activity in these regions probably existed.

The photos are:
A 'Glasgow' basket hilt c.1715+ ...note more conical pommel
This is from "Early Scottish Edged Weapons and Militaria" H.Menard, in 'Book of Edged Weapons", 1997, ed. George Weatherly, p.178,
it is noted "...it appears that Scottish armorers within a geographic area usually fabricated similar style guards like Pennsylvania rifle makers".

Next is of course, Mark's fantastic example of a Glasgow type hilt with early type pommel latter 17th c. and resemblances to the Rob Roy sword of that period. Notice how the stylized 'thistle' (?) in his example is completely pierced as one aperture (as per Mazansky, family A example) while the later Glasgow form is two holes above a triangle.

M ELEY · 15th September 2021, 08:53 PM

Jim, you are amazing!! Thank you for this incredible back information and the comparison to MacGregor's sword is humbling! I wasn't aware Rob Roy's weapon still survived! I had also wondered about the symbols used on these pieces, but understand that there is a lot of guesswork when it comes to meaning versus design. Perhaps each smith had their own 'totum' or variation however subtle, to indicate clan, region, affiliation. As much of this was 'forbidden' during the time of the troubles (again, if one suspects they represented more than just decor), we may never know. Secret societies, Freemasonry and various other mystical clubs were alive and well during this time period after all!

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2021, 09:22 PM

Thank you Capn, this was very exciting research!!! While my comparisons to the Rob Roy sword may seem optimistic to some, I think there is more than reasonable plausibility to place your sword in these Argyll regions in that late 17th century period.

There was of course elements of totemic, occult, arcane and other symbolisms imbued in makers markings etc. and the Jacobite symbols were simply used broadly by devotees of this broad movement. Most of the makers who signed their hilts just used their own initials, these were the Simpsons and Allen's as well as Thomas Gemmill. I think there were others but cannot specify offhand.

The symbolic devices used in the decoration of hilts were not specific to any one maker, but as often the case, they were individually drawn to favor particular themes. Case in point were the Stirling hilts, which tended to be more 'designed' with more elaborate styling. The Glasgow were a bit more rudimentary following structural form with piercings in the plates.

Secret societies were of course rampant in these times, and elements of magic, occult, etc. mixed with Masonic, religious and political elements.
These were times of intrigue, of all kinds, and these wonderful swords hold the secrets and tales of them!

15th September 2021, 07:27 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Rob Roy MacGregor Some years ago while researching Rob Roy, I found that the swords actually used in the fight between Rob Roy and an opponent much younger , Charles Stuart of Ardshiel, had been restored by an Edinburgh master of arms. I have yet to find notes but what I can find so far, While Rob Roy was born in Stirling regions, he was primarily in Highland regions in Argyll, where his now legendary 'cattle' enterprises took place. He was born in 1671, and was very distinctly Jacobite, participating in the early uprisings in 1689, and years later in 1715 and 19. His sword was of 'Glasgow' form, and from what I have seen of pictures of it (pending) the styling, and more importantly, the piercings, are remarkably similar to those on Mark's example. I had thought the rough apertures on the right guard were holes drilled too close to the edge, but as seen on the MacGregor sword, were intentional designs. The curious pierced device with two holes and triangular figure below are interestingly similar to the MacGregor sword also. The Jacobites apparently had numerous 'secret symbols', oak leaves, thistles, etc. and it has been my opinion that in many cases, these were cryptically stylized for covert recognition. This may account for the difficulty in accurately describing these devices. In some cases authors will 'suggest' what these are for the sake of a working term in discussion, but more history of them are wanting. It has been suggested that the Rob Roy sword (owned by a West Highland family in Moidart) dates from late 1680s-90s). The Stuart sword is from a Borders family and is a later backsword. The duel concerned the mens' activity in the Battle of Sheriffmuir 1715, and while it concluded with no fatality, Roy was wounded, and that wound eventually caused his death in 1734. Therefore I suggest this is a Highland basket hilt, in the Glasgow manner, dating from 1690-1710. It is unlikely this was a 'garrison' make, and probably by a regional 'sword slipper' imitating the well known makers in Glasgow. Walter Allen (later Stirling) was a Glasgow maker who used these kinds of pierced devices, so clearly these were around before the '15 as his family were active there since 1680s. The absence of the wrist guard seems to fit as well, as these period of 1680s-90s precedes the addition of the wrist guards (called a 'backward'). While the Allen hilts were signed, this one unsigned was probably by perhaps a journeyman working toward 'hammerman' status. The blade being unmarked may suggest it could be local if the Whitelaw theory of Walter Allen producing his own blades is correct, as it shows some blade activity in these regions probably existed. The photos are: A 'Glasgow' basket hilt c.1715+ ...note more conical pommel This is from "Early Scottish Edged Weapons and Militaria" H.Menard, in 'Book of Edged Weapons", 1997, ed. George Weatherly, p.178, it is noted "...it appears that Scottish armorers within a geographic area usually fabricated similar style guards like Pennsylvania rifle makers". Next is of course, Mark's fantastic example of a Glasgow type hilt with early type pommel latter 17th c. and resemblances to the Rob Roy sword of that period. Notice how the stylized 'thistle' (?) in his example is completely pierced as one aperture (as per Mazansky, family A example) while the later Glasgow form is two holes above a triangle. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th September 2021 at 07:43 PM.

15th September 2021, 03:14 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Jim, that is an amazing description of the battlefield at Culloden, both exciting and terrible in the slaughter. It would have been a sight to see. What I found interesting is that there were no clear lines as to who was friend or foe to either side. Jacobites were, after all, made up of many Scots (both from the Highlands and some Lowlanders, many Irish, the French forces who supported the Bonnie Prince and a mishmash of Englishmen and others who hated the Hanoverian king. Not all Highlanders supported the Jacobites. The two main branches of the Clan Campbell, for instance, fought against each other on rival sides. I always wondered how that worked for the clans that supported the king having to surrender their pipes, weapons after they fought for him! I'm assuming from the reports of the battle that the vast majority of casualty at the '45 were Scots, though, as I've never heard of any French weapons being picked up off of the field at Culloden.

15th September 2021, 08:53 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Jim, you are amazing!! Thank you for this incredible back information and the comparison to MacGregor's sword is humbling! I wasn't aware Rob Roy's weapon still survived! I had also wondered about the symbols used on these pieces, but understand that there is a lot of guesswork when it comes to meaning versus design. Perhaps each smith had their own 'totum' or variation however subtle, to indicate clan, region, affiliation. As much of this was 'forbidden' during the time of the troubles (again, if one suspects they represented more than just decor), we may never know. Secret societies, Freemasonry and various other mystical clubs were alive and well during this time period after all!

15th September 2021, 09:22 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you Capn, this was very exciting research!!! While my comparisons to the Rob Roy sword may seem optimistic to some, I think there is more than reasonable plausibility to place your sword in these Argyll regions in that late 17th century period. There was of course elements of totemic, occult, arcane and other symbolisms imbued in makers markings etc. and the Jacobite symbols were simply used broadly by devotees of this broad movement. Most of the makers who signed their hilts just used their own initials, these were the Simpsons and Allen's as well as Thomas Gemmill. I think there were others but cannot specify offhand. The symbolic devices used in the decoration of hilts were not specific to any one maker, but as often the case, they were individually drawn to favor particular themes. Case in point were the Stirling hilts, which tended to be more 'designed' with more elaborate styling. The Glasgow were a bit more rudimentary following structural form with piercings in the plates. Secret societies were of course rampant in these times, and elements of magic, occult, etc. mixed with Masonic, religious and political elements. These were times of intrigue, of all kinds, and these wonderful swords hold the secrets and tales of them!