Unusual Quaddara

[francantolin]

I often used ''gentle'' acids like regular coke for remove rust and keep a nice patina , the koftgari isn't damaged.
a solution with diluted ferric chlorid works too.
vinegar is ok but, as mentioned, often the steel turns dull...

on the other side of the PH scale, baking soda is ok to turn rust over and preserve silver or golden koftgari
,only problem: sometimes it cleans and shine too much. and all patina is lost...


PS: I do that when the kofgari is no more visible and covered by rust, In your case,I find too its ok so just a little oil/''magic''WD40
will be good if you are afraid to lose some kofgari or aged patina...

[ariel]

Marius,
I did not go into explanations of the obvious: the edge was cleaned. There was no koftgari there and there were no technical limitations
As I mentioned earlier, I have used fine sandpaper on the fullers,

[ariel]

Francantolin,
I am intrigued by your techniques of coke and soda. Can you elaborate?

[mahratt]

I apologize in advance. What I post in this comment is just an opinion. So everyone can continue to think as they want
Two replies from the Russian forum, where I posted photos of the "unique quadarra":

1) All metal parts including the blade are aged with acid. You will never find a struck mark of same shape on original item.

2) On a note to "expert": if you see such incomprehensible garbage, then feel free to write "Syria", there they will make "any whim for his money" for the buyer

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you Mahratt for these better pictures!

You raise an interesting issue.

The corrosion on the blade appears to be genuine to my eyes.

However, I find it very strange that it is so evenly spread across the whole blade. From my experience, the blades oxidize unevenly, with those parts that are inside the metallic armatures of the scabbard oxidizing much more than the rest, because that's where most of the micro-condensation takes place. Usually, most of the oxidation is at the tip of the blade, on the part that is inside the chape.

I also find strange the level of oxidation and the aspect of it on the scabbard. I have many pieces with koftgari, in various conditions but usually the oxidation is not so uniform and doesn't have this brownish aspect.

Last but not least, for most scabbards, the parts that get damaged first are those covered in textile or leather, while the metallic armatures tend to remain in better condition. Here I see the opposite: the metallic armatures are in poor, corroded condition, while the mid-section leather part is in significantly better condition. If the metallic parts were exposed to such harsh conditions to get so heavily corroded, then I would expect the leather to show some matching degradation and be in much worse condition.

So, while I cannot express a definitive conclusion, I believe there are some points that may raise some suspicion.

As a fellow member would say: "my antennae are twitching."

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Thank you Mahratt for these better pictures!

You raise an interesting issue.

The corrosion on the blade appears to be genuine to my eyes.

However, I find it very strange that it is so evenly spread across the whole blade. From my experience, the blades oxidize unevenly, with those parts that are inside the metallic armatures of the scabbard oxidizing much more than the rest, because that's where most of the micro-condensation takes place. Usually, most of the oxidation is at the tip of the blade, on the part that is inside the chape.

I also find strange the level of oxidation and the aspect of it on the scabbard. I have many pieces with koftgari, in various conditions but usually the oxidation is not so uniform and doesn't have this brownish aspect.

Last but not least, for most scabbards, the parts that get damaged first are those covered in textile or leather, while the metallic armatures tend to remain in better condition. Here I see the opposite: the metallic armatures are in poor, corroded condition, while the mid-section leather part is in significantly better condition. If the metallic parts were exposed to such harsh conditions to get so heavily corroded, then I would expect the leather to show some matching degradation and be in much worse condition.

So, while I cannot express a definitive conclusion, I believe there are some points that may raise some suspicion.

As a fellow member would say: "my antennae are twitching."

Yes, Marius. And don't forget that the horn on hilt is in perfect condition. In this case, usually if the item has served 150-200 years, as written by the seller, the handle from horn looks a little different

[ariel]

Marius,
The preferential rusting of the point is the result of storing the ( especially scabbarded ) sword vertically, as was the usual practice of arsenals and private wall- hangings, with moisture naturally accumulating around the point. See Elgood’s description of the rusted/ pockmarked upper surfaces of arsenal tulwars’ discs: dust accumulation there retained moisture with predictable results. If the sword was stored horizontally and wrapped in some tissue the main damage would be to the scabbard soft iron parts and the highly carbonized steel body of the blade, rather than the point. That is why the locket and the chape are covered in diffuse layers of thin rust, while the blade is pitted.
As to the handle, I have mentioned earlier that the seller’s description of it was inaccurate: the horn on one side was cracked and glued by some unknown ( yet:-) substance.

This is not the first time a particular person suggests that I bought a fake. That’s his way of trying to get under my skin:-) I just do not pay attention to the childish vitriolics .

There is not a scintilla of doubt in my mind that the “ quaddara” or what other name we attach to it is 100% old and authentic. How old? IMHO, at least 19th century. I am waiting for Kwiatek to pitch in. Hopefully, then we may know better.

I may have to re-photograph the whole shebang, but the weather here was and still is horrible, with incessant thunderstorms, unbearable heat and sauna- like humidity. The only living creatures enjoying it are the mosquitoes, and swarms of them. On the other hand, watching hundreds of fireflies dancing at night over a wet grass is something to behold!

[Interested Party]

This is a kindjal posted by Arsendaday in March 2016. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...etched+kindjal Post #27
The lines and fuller work look similar.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by mahratt

I apologize in advance. What I post in this comment is just an opinion. So everyone can continue to think as they want
Two replies from the Russian forum, where I posted photos of the "unique quadarra":

1) All metal parts including the blade are aged with acid. You will never find a struck mark of same shape on original item.

2) On a note to "expert": if you see such incomprehensible garbage, then feel free to write "Syria", there they will make "any whim for his money" for the buyer

Mahratt,

The demonstration of a second example of this type of sword (as shown by "Interested Party") would seem to negate both arguments from the Russian forum that you quoted. Both the fullers and what appears to be a struck mark on this second example indicates that the subject of this thread is not a unique example made to order in Syria. We seem to be seeing a very unusual style based on an Ottoman blade.


As far as acid etching is concerned, the blade and scabbard are too rusted to make such an assessment IMHO.

[ariel]

Interested Party,
Thanks for finding the old kindjal pics.
The complicated system of fullers is very similar to my example. In turn, as I have noted earlier, there is an uncanny resemblance to the Trabzon Surmene daggers.
Very interesting. Quite likely, that the coins under the bosses are Iranian.

Do my eyes fool me, or is there a yataghan-ish curving of the blade?

What especially puzzled me ( pleasantly) was Arsendaddy’s aside that he considered this type of daggers to be the Caucasian ( Trabzon????? - my addition) progenitor of the Iranian qaddara. I have mentioned before Kirill Rivkin’s opinion that Georgian singe-edged kindjals migrated to Azerbaidjan and from there to Iran, and Vakhtang Kiziria’s version of Kakhetian Sabarkali fulfilling the same role.
These three Caucasian aficionados seem to tell the same story, but from different angles. If their common story has legs, mine may be quite older than the traditional “ 19th century”.
Waiting for Kwiatek.

[ariel]

Ian,
The two Russian forumites ( if they exist at all) suggesting that there are some circumstantial hair-splitting inconsistencies may not be entirely blamed. They may be just exhibiting a somewhat paranoidal attitude to dating and authenticating of any objects.
I visit ( passively) Russian old weapons Fora, and in 95%of cases anything shown there immediately defined as fake on the basis of imaginary minor inconsistencies and personal peculiarities. And, what is indeed sad, they have a reason to be paranoid: contemporary Russian antiquarian business is permeated with obviously crude fakes, almost on the order of magnitude with India ( even taking into account the 10-fold difference in populations). Several identical shiny shashkas are put on the same auction one after another, each as a “unique example”, Chinese “katanas” as Koto, munition quality tulwars as belonging to one shah or another, composite pieces as 15th century etc. Add to it self-proclaimed “experts”, who will add a certificate of authenticity for anything the seller wants, frequent incompetence of the museum experts etc, etc.

In that climate it must be awfully hard to recognize even a real gem. I don't blame them, I sympathize with them, but take everything they say with not just a grain, but with a pound of salt.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by ariel

Interested Party,
Thanks for finding the old kindjal pics.
The complicated system of fullers is very similar to my example. In turn, as I have noted earlier, there is an uncanny resemblance to the Trabzon Surmene daggers.
Very interesting. Quite likely, that the coins under the bosses are Iranian.

Do my eyes fool me, or is there a yataghan-ish curving of the blade?

What especially puzzled me ( pleasantly) was Arsendaddy’s aside that he considered this type of daggers to be the Caucasian ( Trabzon????? - my addition) progenitor of the Iranian qaddara. I have mentioned before Kirill Rivkin’s opinion that Georgian singe-edged kindjals migrated to Azerbaidjan and from there to Iran, and Vakhtang Kiziria’s version of Kakhetian Sabarkali fulfilling the same role.
These three Caucasian aficionados seem to tell the same story, but from different angles. If their common story has legs, mine may be quite older than the traditional “ 19th century”.
Waiting for Kwiatek.

I see a curve too. That said its back appears straight while the back of you blade appears curve. So it could be recurved or simply well used. There is also how poor photos can create distortions, so please take my analysis with a grain of salt. The handle restoration indicates use during its working life. The fullers though are very similar.

I thought the Trabzon reference was interesting. That said I found this as I have been combing through old threads for a different interest. What I found is that in the 2004-15 range Trabzon seemed a bit of a catch all attribution. I found one thread with a very Gurian looking piece thrown in with Trabzon. Though in this case it seems more likely as the OP's quadarresque style doesn't have another home. It will be interesting if we get information concerning the inscriptions to help fact check our theories.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Ian

Mahratt,

The demonstration of a second example of this type of sword (as shown by "Interested Party") would seem to negate both arguments from the Russian forum that you quoted. Both the fullers and what appears to be a struck mark on this second example indicates that the subject of this thread is not a unique example made to order in Syria. We seem to be seeing a very unusual style based on an Ottoman blade.


As far as acid etching is concerned, the blade and scabbard are too rusted to make such an assessment IMHO.

Ian, I did not write (not to upset our dear Ariel) that serious collectors of Oriental arms have long known that all lots from this seller were made in recent times. But, as I wrote earlier, everyone has the right to believe the version the seller provided.
Unfortunately, Ariel represents that Russia is still in the 1990s.

P.S. My opinion is that the days when you could buy a unique item for "2 cents" on marketplaces like e-bay are long gone. Now everyone has the internet and any seller knows for sure if his item is unique or not. And also knows that a unique item cannot be cheap.

[ariel]

Slander, especially attributed to anonymous sources, is very high on my list of despicable behaviors.

Just an aside.

[ariel]

Interested Party,

Seems to me that the spine of the terminal third of the blade is tilting down just a little, and the edge follows the same direction. Of course, physical examination of the dagger itself would be much more informative.
As to the consequences of the “ heavy use”, that can be confirmed ( or rejected) through measurements of the width of the blade at different points.

But in general, there is an uncanny resemblance of that and mine “ qaddaras” ( for want of a better word). It suggests that it was a general, albeit extremely rare, subtype rather than sporadic improvisation by an isolated master.

And of course the inscriptions might be of crucial importance.
While the existing contour and decorations do suggest Persian provenance, as a rule Persian blades had no fullers, while Turkish Surmenes had a very elaborate system of those.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by mahratt

... P.S. My opinion is that the days when you could buy a unique item for "2 cents" on marketplaces like e-bay are long gone. Now everyone has the internet and any seller knows for sure if his item is unique or not. And also knows that a unique item cannot be cheap.

Mahratt,

I'm not so sure. Occasional items slip through the cracks. Every now and then (much less commonly than in the 1990s), the odd item is misidentified and ends up to be a real sleeper. This is still the case with some Filipino items, for example--not so much the Moro pieces but less common swords and knives from other Filipino cultures about which we have much less information. Filipino collectors (i.e., those from within the culture) are providing more and more information about their ethnographic arms and armor, helping us to better understand important and valuable pieces of their rich culture.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Ian

Mahratt,

I'm not so sure. Occasional items slip through the cracks. Every now and then (much less commonly than in the 1990s), the odd item is misidentified and ends up to be a real sleeper. This is still the case with some Filipino items, for example--not so much the Moro pieces but less common swords and knives from other Filipino cultures about which we have much less information. Filipino collectors (i.e., those from within the culture) are providing more and more information about their ethnographic arms and armor, helping us to better understand important and valuable pieces of their rich culture.

Ian,
I definitely agree with you about tribal ethnographic weapons. But, Oriental arms (Indo-Persian, Ottoman, etc.) in recent years, has been actively monitored by all collectors.