Unusual Quaddara

[Ian]

Originally Posted by mahratt

I apologize in advance. What I post in this comment is just an opinion. So everyone can continue to think as they want
Two replies from the Russian forum, where I posted photos of the "unique quadarra":

1) All metal parts including the blade are aged with acid. You will never find a struck mark of same shape on original item.

2) On a note to "expert": if you see such incomprehensible garbage, then feel free to write "Syria", there they will make "any whim for his money" for the buyer

Mahratt,

The demonstration of a second example of this type of sword (as shown by "Interested Party") would seem to negate both arguments from the Russian forum that you quoted. Both the fullers and what appears to be a struck mark on this second example indicates that the subject of this thread is not a unique example made to order in Syria. We seem to be seeing a very unusual style based on an Ottoman blade.


As far as acid etching is concerned, the blade and scabbard are too rusted to make such an assessment IMHO.

[ariel]

Interested Party,
Thanks for finding the old kindjal pics.
The complicated system of fullers is very similar to my example. In turn, as I have noted earlier, there is an uncanny resemblance to the Trabzon Surmene daggers.
Very interesting. Quite likely, that the coins under the bosses are Iranian.

Do my eyes fool me, or is there a yataghan-ish curving of the blade?

What especially puzzled me ( pleasantly) was Arsendaddy’s aside that he considered this type of daggers to be the Caucasian ( Trabzon????? - my addition) progenitor of the Iranian qaddara. I have mentioned before Kirill Rivkin’s opinion that Georgian singe-edged kindjals migrated to Azerbaidjan and from there to Iran, and Vakhtang Kiziria’s version of Kakhetian Sabarkali fulfilling the same role.
These three Caucasian aficionados seem to tell the same story, but from different angles. If their common story has legs, mine may be quite older than the traditional “ 19th century”.
Waiting for Kwiatek.

[ariel]

Ian,
The two Russian forumites ( if they exist at all) suggesting that there are some circumstantial hair-splitting inconsistencies may not be entirely blamed. They may be just exhibiting a somewhat paranoidal attitude to dating and authenticating of any objects.
I visit ( passively) Russian old weapons Fora, and in 95%of cases anything shown there immediately defined as fake on the basis of imaginary minor inconsistencies and personal peculiarities. And, what is indeed sad, they have a reason to be paranoid: contemporary Russian antiquarian business is permeated with obviously crude fakes, almost on the order of magnitude with India ( even taking into account the 10-fold difference in populations). Several identical shiny shashkas are put on the same auction one after another, each as a “unique example”, Chinese “katanas” as Koto, munition quality tulwars as belonging to one shah or another, composite pieces as 15th century etc. Add to it self-proclaimed “experts”, who will add a certificate of authenticity for anything the seller wants, frequent incompetence of the museum experts etc, etc.

In that climate it must be awfully hard to recognize even a real gem. I don't blame them, I sympathize with them, but take everything they say with not just a grain, but with a pound of salt.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by ariel

Interested Party,
Thanks for finding the old kindjal pics.
The complicated system of fullers is very similar to my example. In turn, as I have noted earlier, there is an uncanny resemblance to the Trabzon Surmene daggers.
Very interesting. Quite likely, that the coins under the bosses are Iranian.

Do my eyes fool me, or is there a yataghan-ish curving of the blade?

What especially puzzled me ( pleasantly) was Arsendaddy’s aside that he considered this type of daggers to be the Caucasian ( Trabzon????? - my addition) progenitor of the Iranian qaddara. I have mentioned before Kirill Rivkin’s opinion that Georgian singe-edged kindjals migrated to Azerbaidjan and from there to Iran, and Vakhtang Kiziria’s version of Kakhetian Sabarkali fulfilling the same role.
These three Caucasian aficionados seem to tell the same story, but from different angles. If their common story has legs, mine may be quite older than the traditional “ 19th century”.
Waiting for Kwiatek.

I see a curve too. That said its back appears straight while the back of you blade appears curve. So it could be recurved or simply well used. There is also how poor photos can create distortions, so please take my analysis with a grain of salt. The handle restoration indicates use during its working life. The fullers though are very similar.

I thought the Trabzon reference was interesting. That said I found this as I have been combing through old threads for a different interest. What I found is that in the 2004-15 range Trabzon seemed a bit of a catch all attribution. I found one thread with a very Gurian looking piece thrown in with Trabzon. Though in this case it seems more likely as the OP's quadarresque style doesn't have another home. It will be interesting if we get information concerning the inscriptions to help fact check our theories.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Ian

Mahratt,

The demonstration of a second example of this type of sword (as shown by "Interested Party") would seem to negate both arguments from the Russian forum that you quoted. Both the fullers and what appears to be a struck mark on this second example indicates that the subject of this thread is not a unique example made to order in Syria. We seem to be seeing a very unusual style based on an Ottoman blade.


As far as acid etching is concerned, the blade and scabbard are too rusted to make such an assessment IMHO.

Ian, I did not write (not to upset our dear Ariel) that serious collectors of Oriental arms have long known that all lots from this seller were made in recent times. But, as I wrote earlier, everyone has the right to believe the version the seller provided.
Unfortunately, Ariel represents that Russia is still in the 1990s.

P.S. My opinion is that the days when you could buy a unique item for "2 cents" on marketplaces like e-bay are long gone. Now everyone has the internet and any seller knows for sure if his item is unique or not. And also knows that a unique item cannot be cheap.

[ariel]

Slander, especially attributed to anonymous sources, is very high on my list of despicable behaviors.

Just an aside.

[ariel]

Interested Party,

Seems to me that the spine of the terminal third of the blade is tilting down just a little, and the edge follows the same direction. Of course, physical examination of the dagger itself would be much more informative.
As to the consequences of the “ heavy use”, that can be confirmed ( or rejected) through measurements of the width of the blade at different points.

But in general, there is an uncanny resemblance of that and mine “ qaddaras” ( for want of a better word). It suggests that it was a general, albeit extremely rare, subtype rather than sporadic improvisation by an isolated master.

And of course the inscriptions might be of crucial importance.
While the existing contour and decorations do suggest Persian provenance, as a rule Persian blades had no fullers, while Turkish Surmenes had a very elaborate system of those.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Interested Party,

Seems to me that the spine of the terminal third of the blade is tilting down just a little, and the edge follows the same direction. Of course, physical examination of the dagger itself would be much more informative.
As to the consequences of the “ heavy use”, that can be confirmed ( or rejected) through measurements of the width of the blade at different points.

But in general, there is an uncanny resemblance of that and mine “ qaddaras” ( for want of a better word). It suggests that it was a general, albeit extremely rare, subtype rather than sporadic improvisation by an isolated master.

And of course the inscriptions might be of crucial importance.
While the existing contour and decorations do suggest Persian provenance, as a rule Persian blades had no fullers, while Turkish Surmenes had a very elaborate system of those.

Ariel, I hope that after you translate the inscriptions from this item, there will be a fascinating article in a scientific journal in which you will state your theory based on this subject. I'm already looking forward to it.

That is, of course, if you are sure of authenticity of this quadarra. You can't have such an unusual item just lying around in a private collection. It should serve science. All the more, as I remember you have experience (albeit small) in publishing articles related to Arms. I think "Weapons History Journal" will gladly give you an opportunity to make a publication.

[kwiatek]

I cannot make a lot out of it, what is legible appears to be the usual stuff such as Qur'an 48:1. There is also a maker's inscription

عمل ابر[ا]هيم

'Work of Ibrahim'

[ariel]

Thanks Kwiatek!

[Ian]

Originally Posted by mahratt

... P.S. My opinion is that the days when you could buy a unique item for "2 cents" on marketplaces like e-bay are long gone. Now everyone has the internet and any seller knows for sure if his item is unique or not. And also knows that a unique item cannot be cheap.

Mahratt,

I'm not so sure. Occasional items slip through the cracks. Every now and then (much less commonly than in the 1990s), the odd item is misidentified and ends up to be a real sleeper. This is still the case with some Filipino items, for example--not so much the Moro pieces but less common swords and knives from other Filipino cultures about which we have much less information. Filipino collectors (i.e., those from within the culture) are providing more and more information about their ethnographic arms and armor, helping us to better understand important and valuable pieces of their rich culture.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Ian

Mahratt,

I'm not so sure. Occasional items slip through the cracks. Every now and then (much less commonly than in the 1990s), the odd item is misidentified and ends up to be a real sleeper. This is still the case with some Filipino items, for example--not so much the Moro pieces but less common swords and knives from other Filipino cultures about which we have much less information. Filipino collectors (i.e., those from within the culture) are providing more and more information about their ethnographic arms and armor, helping us to better understand important and valuable pieces of their rich culture.

Ian,
I definitely agree with you about tribal ethnographic weapons. But, Oriental arms (Indo-Persian, Ottoman, etc.) in recent years, has been actively monitored by all collectors.