Napoleonic saber-Naval ?

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2022, 01:19 PM

I posted this mid 18th century British dragoon sword a while back, and have had the opinion this may be an early version of the 'four slot guard' which became so well known on British cavalry swords of 1760s into 80s.,

It seems that examples of these, some by Jeffries, London, which are typically described as 1760-70 are seen as having the knuckle guard joining the side of the pommel. This one with the same tall olive type pommel however, has the distinct 'pommel' ring to which the guard elements are attached, and the ring rests just under the pommel.

This feature seems to be in accord with most British dragoon sword hilts of the 18th century with the many variations of basket, half basket guards, but seems to have ceased being used by about 1760.

Any ideas on just when this hilt element ceased, and is it a worthy factor in determining date on these British dragoon sword hilts?

SwordLover79 · 8th February 2023, 11:00 PM

here are three photos of an almost identical sword to Jim's in my collection. The sword knot ring is at the pommel. Well marked with George III cipher and coat of arms on the blade (which is German -by J.J. Runkel of Solingen). I assumed that it was an Officer's private purchase modeled on the 1796 cavalry saber, though the blade is not as heavy.

Radboud · 9th February 2023, 05:59 PM

That’s a lovely sword. How long is the blade? Do you have an image of the whole sword?

Having a small lanyard ring like that is an interesting choice. I have to wonder how well such an arrangement would stand up the the rigours of mounted combat. Of course there are practical alternatives that can be used while still retaining the ring.

The at of arms is the pre-1801 type, so while not exactly a precise measure it does help identify this as an early sabre. My observation has been that sabere blades supplied by Runkel tend to be on the larger size for dismounted or purely dress use.

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2023, 06:05 PM

Very nice!! Note that in the coat of arms, the three fluer de lis in upper right quadrant are present.....this theoretically changed in 1801, so presumably this is pre that 1801 date. However it is quite possible that technicality was not readily observed, and that blades on hand with cutlers and outfiitters might have been used later.

kronckew · 9th February 2023, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very nice!! Note that in the coat of arms, the three fluer de lis in upper right quadrant are present.....this theoretically changed in 1801, so presumably this is pre that 1801 date. However it is quite possible that technicality was not readily observed, and that blades on hand with cutlers and outfiitters might have been used later.

In 1801, when George III renounced his title as King of France under the Treaty of Paris, the French Fleur de Lis quartering was removed,and replaced with the Scottish Lion.

SwordLover79 · 9th February 2023, 10:28 PM

As requested, here are photos of the whole sword. the blade is 32.5" and the overall length is 37.5" This sword has a milder curve than a similar lion headed saber it sits next to on my shelf (blade 30", overall 35.25"). I added photos in case you are interested in seeing both. The second sword is blued with gold for half the length of the blade, and has a very fancy brass guard.

Radboud · 10th February 2023, 07:29 AM

Thank you for the additional photos, at 32.5 inches thats the standard length for the 1796 Pattern LC. So your’s is most certainly a cavalry officers, most likely from the Yeomanry, given the guilding.

Your other sword is the 1803 Pattern ‘Flank Officers’ sword. The flank companies were the Grenadiers and the Light Company that marched on the flank of the regiment. These were seen as the regiments’ elites with the Grenadiers often at the front and in the thick of battle while the Light Company ranged out, scouting ahead and skirmishing with the enemy before full engagement by the regiment. From 1800 the officers of these companies were given permission to carry sabres (a habit they had already acquired) in place of the 1796 Pattern infantry officers sword. Drawing on the ones that were popular in 1803 an official pattern was declared with a lions head pommel and GR cypher for the guard.

Lots of variation exists in the grips, with leather and shagrin being most common, but ivory and wire grips are also found. Because the hilt is the pattern, there is a lot of variation in the length and shape of the blade in these.

Of course, over time others chose to carry these swords, so it is not impossible that your’s belonged to a high ranking general officer, rather than a ‘Flank officer’.

SwordLover79 · 10th February 2023, 03:06 PM

Great information - Thanks!

1st December 2022, 01:19 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	18th Century British dragoon swords-pommel ring I posted this mid 18th century British dragoon sword a while back, and have had the opinion this may be an early version of the 'four slot guard' which became so well known on British cavalry swords of 1760s into 80s., It seems that examples of these, some by Jeffries, London, which are typically described as 1760-70 are seen as having the knuckle guard joining the side of the pommel. This one with the same tall olive type pommel however, has the distinct 'pommel' ring to which the guard elements are attached, and the ring rests just under the pommel. This feature seems to be in accord with most British dragoon sword hilts of the 18th century with the many variations of basket, half basket guards, but seems to have ceased being used by about 1760. Any ideas on just when this hilt element ceased, and is it a worthy factor in determining date on these British dragoon sword hilts? Attached Images

8th February 2023, 11:00 PM	#2
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	white hilted saber here are three photos of an almost identical sword to Jim's in my collection. The sword knot ring is at the pommel. Well marked with George III cipher and coat of arms on the blade (which is German -by J.J. Runkel of Solingen). I assumed that it was an Officer's private purchase modeled on the 1796 cavalry saber, though the blade is not as heavy. Attached Images

9th February 2023, 10:28 PM	#6
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	late 18th Century British Sabers As requested, here are photos of the whole sword. the blade is 32.5" and the overall length is 37.5" This sword has a milder curve than a similar lion headed saber it sits next to on my shelf (blade 30", overall 35.25"). I added photos in case you are interested in seeing both. The second sword is blued with gold for half the length of the blade, and has a very fancy brass guard. Attached Images

10th February 2023, 03:06 PM	#8
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Flank Officer Sword Great information - Thanks!

9th February 2023, 05:59 PM	#3
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	That’s a lovely sword. How long is the blade? Do you have an image of the whole sword? Having a small lanyard ring like that is an interesting choice. I have to wonder how well such an arrangement would stand up the the rigours of mounted combat. Of course there are practical alternatives that can be used while still retaining the ring. The at of arms is the pre-1801 type, so while not exactly a precise measure it does help identify this as an early sabre. My observation has been that sabere blades supplied by Runkel tend to be on the larger size for dismounted or purely dress use.

9th February 2023, 06:05 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Very nice!! Note that in the coat of arms, the three fluer de lis in upper right quadrant are present.....this theoretically changed in 1801, so presumably this is pre that 1801 date. However it is quite possible that technicality was not readily observed, and that blades on hand with cutlers and outfiitters might have been used later.

10th February 2023, 07:29 AM	#7
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	Thank you for the additional photos, at 32.5 inches thats the standard length for the 1796 Pattern LC. So your’s is most certainly a cavalry officers, most likely from the Yeomanry, given the guilding. Your other sword is the 1803 Pattern ‘Flank Officers’ sword. The flank companies were the Grenadiers and the Light Company that marched on the flank of the regiment. These were seen as the regiments’ elites with the Grenadiers often at the front and in the thick of battle while the Light Company ranged out, scouting ahead and skirmishing with the enemy before full engagement by the regiment. From 1800 the officers of these companies were given permission to carry sabres (a habit they had already acquired) in place of the 1796 Pattern infantry officers sword. Drawing on the ones that were popular in 1803 an official pattern was declared with a lions head pommel and GR cypher for the guard. Lots of variation exists in the grips, with leather and shagrin being most common, but ivory and wire grips are also found. Because the hilt is the pattern, there is a lot of variation in the length and shape of the blade in these. Of course, over time others chose to carry these swords, so it is not impossible that your’s belonged to a high ranking general officer, rather than a ‘Flank officer’.