Napoleonic saber-Naval ?

[Will M]

1796p swords with brass hilts are commonly described as yeomanry officers swords. The sword knot loop is not uncommon. I would not go so far as to say it's naval though could have been used by that branch on an individual basis.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Will M

I would not go so far as to say it's naval though could have been used by that branch on an individual basis.

I think the ivory = navy notion is just another of those misconceptions created by early collectors and then spread by less-than-scrupulous dealers looking to cash in on a "navy premium".

It's a nice sword Jim. Is it still in your collection? Do you have the scabbard, and are there any manufacturer's marks on it?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

I think the ivory = navy notion is just another of those misconceptions created by early collectors and then spread by less-than-scrupulous dealers looking to cash in on a "navy premium".

It's a nice sword Jim. Is it still in your collection? Do you have the scabbard, and are there any manufacturer's marks on it?

I agree, there are many 'notions' in the collecting game, and the dealers poured gas on those fires to cash in just as you say. As with most cases of items whose provenance has been compromised, and we can only speculate the true character of the weapon, that status must remain standing, speculative.

As agreed, officers had carte blanche in the swords they commissioned, and fashion was extremely competitive so anything was possible. From what little I recall when I got this back in the 70s, I thought it was probably yeomanry as it was so different from most cavalry forms, but honestly cannot recall details.
I still have it, but not handy to examine presently, these photos are it for now. It did not have a scabbard. When I can I will get to it unless there are more photos.

I am hoping with this thread we might see 'cavalry' sabers of the M1796 form with ivory hilts. Clearly ivory was used on the mameluke sabers but cannot recall any of these stirrup hilts with it. Also, that curious sword knot fixture on other examples......that example on your Osborn is most telling.

Thank you again for the great observations and comments! Much appreciated.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am hoping with this thread we might see 'cavalry' sabers of the M1796 form with ivory hilts. Clearly ivory was used on the mameluke sabers but cannot recall any of these stirrup hilts with it.

I think that really depends on your definition of the 1796 pattern (the Europeans use model, not the British) form.

It is not uncommon to find them, many of the Lloyds Patriotic funds swords are sabres with a simple guard and langets.

Just yesterday a nice one by Woolley and Deakin with ivory grip sold at auction and another earlier in the month. Nick Thomas from the Academy of Historical Fencing also featured one in his Sword Studies series

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

I think that really depends on your definition of the 1796 pattern (the Europeans use model, not the British) form.

It is not uncommon to find them, many of the Lloyds Patriotic funds swords are sabres with a simple guard and langets.

Just yesterday a nice one by Woolley and Deakin with ivory grip sold at auction and another earlier in the month. Nick Thomas from the Academy of Historical Fencing also featured one in his Sword Studies series

Good points, while I am of course thinking of the British model 1796 temporally, I should elaborate and qualify exactly which nationality, model etc. despite the context of the discussion.
I had also not thought of the Lloyds swords (that is 'Patriotic Fund) and other presentation type sabers, and of course the M1803 (Infantry officers sabre with lion head) which seemed to have a wide scope of variant details, up to becoming almost a setting for artistic detail.

I had one once with the lion head instead of having the flowing mane, had an Egyptian sphinx like headdress, probably of course signifying service in the the campaigns in Egypt. There again is another field of presentation or commemorative sword examples.

Clearly, ivory was a material which found decorative use in many British swords surrounding the Napoleonic, Georgian and Regency periods, but my attention here has been those which might apply to officers sabers of the British CAVALRY regiments of the M1796 stirrup hilt pattern.

I have no vested interest in trying to establish this particular example as being naval. However I thought comparing it to other similar examples of the British naval officers stirrup hilt sabers of M1796 form that WERE indeed such, typically noted as 'fighting sabers' and seemingly following the convention of naval officers adopting this cavalry pattern as described by Annis (1970) it might lend credence to the possibility this might be despite being without fouled anchor decoration.

Again, thank you so much for these great insights and noting of other possibilities.

[Radboud]

On reflection, I think it is telling just how few presentation or exceptionally high quality swords we see of the 1796 Pattern infantry / heavy cavalry officers (dress) type.

To my thinking it illustrates how popular, sabres were as exotic swords that represented wealth and fashion in that period. Unfortunately, this means that it is difficult to apply rules of thumb to them. Cavalry sabres typically had a blade length of 84 - 86cm while an infantry officer would normally favour 76 to 81cm.

But light cavalry officers often had a dress (and possibly full dress) sword that could be lighter and shorter.

Infantry officers had gilded hilts, while cavalry officers swords had steel hilts. Except there exist steel hilted sabres with province to The Rifles brigades and regulations for heavy cavalry dress swords with gilded hilts.

Mameluke sabres were worn as regimental dress swords before they became officially recognised in 1822 which is another example of British regiments being quite happy to ‘do their own thing’. And then there was the ‘home front’ who invented their own uniforms and ‘regulations’. During that era 1 in 4 men were in ‘military service’, many of them in militia, volunteer and yeomanry units. The yeomanry especially, were men of wealth that had an image to uphold.

To my mind, there can be no doubt that British cavalry officers (including the Yeomanry) of sufficient wealth could have carried a stirrup hilted, 1796 style sabre with an ivory hilt. Such a sword would most likely have been carried as part of their dress or full dress uniform.

Alas without something to tie a specific sword to any one branch of service or unit / troop (such as regimental markings or iconography) there is no way to know for certain.

Here we have a nice picture of British cavalry officers from 1806 showing a large variety of different swords and scabbards. We see 1796 types with various curvature and length, mamelukes, steel and leather scabbards with steel or gilt fittings. Unfortunately not all hilts are shown and the only ivory I can spot is on the mamelukes.

[Jim McDougall]

Well said, those dress swords of the infantry and cavalry for officers, which were more of a 'heavy' version of civilian small sword type hilts, were not held in particularly high esteem by officers.

As you note, the saber was seen in the flamboyant (=exotic) hues of the 'hussar phenomenon' of Europe with the introduction of the 1796 pattern stirrup hilt for light cavalry. While this was the first 'regulation' pattern , however the so called M1788 had been in use already by light cavalry.

With this being the case, the saber was of course more attractive as carrying the highly fashionable 'hussar' image. The 'exotic' flair of these sabers, as previously noted, was not lost on naval officers, who though not cavalry, still had their own image to embellish.

With the British M1796 light cavalry stirrup hilt saber, there seem to have been numbers of variations overall. With those for troopers it seems that in some degree there were slight deviations with makers, possibly by their own takes on certain elements but still in the general image of the form.
I recall in my early days of collecting British patterns, there were a number of us trying to assemble the variant exemplars on the British M1796 light cavalry
sabers, as there was distinctly a spectrum of them.
It was obviously far more so with officers sabers, as we have noted.

As can be seen in this great illustration, it was all quite a fashion show, so as you say, without distinct provenance or markings, what officers whim and what military, yeomanry or other unit he was in....it is anybodys guess, but clearly a Georgian or Regency period example.