Heinrich Kolle

[Triarii]

Not sure why they came out so large. They're clearer at a smaller scale like the attachment.

[Triarii]

Werecow, the photos are the right way around.

However, although annoyingly I can't get as good a photo as the Mk1 eyeball;

1. In the bright sun today (makes a change) the circular blob at the top of the shield clearly has a small cross in it.
2. The crown is clearly visible below that and has multiple points around its top.
3. However, below is a reversed 3.

.

So possibly 89, so possibly Sebastian Hernandez. The text below for No 89 (el viejo Vivia) translates as "the old man lived 1637". I'm not sure if that means 'was active around 1637' or died 1637.
That aligns with the hilt type.

The text for No 90 (el mozo labro tambien en sevilla) translates as "the young man also worked in Seville". Presumably his earlier mark.

Thanks Werecow - I'll look at my other lists of marks to check.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Triarii

... I'm not sure if that means 'was active around 1637' or died 1637...

Means that there are (written) records of him being alive (at least) in that date.

[fernando]

Like so ...


.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Triarii

Werecow, the photos are the right way around.

However, although annoyingly I can't get as good a photo as the Mk1 eyeball;

1. In the bright sun today (makes a change) the circular blob at the top of the shield clearly has a small cross in it.
2. The crown is clearly visible below that and has multiple points around its top.
3. However, below is a reversed 3.

.

So possibly 89, so possibly Sebastian Hernandez. The text below for No 89 (el viejo Vivia) translates as "the old man lived 1637". I'm not sure if that means 'was active around 1637' or died 1637.
That aligns with the hilt type.

The text for No 90 (el mozo labro tambien en sevilla) translates as "the young man also worked in Seville". Presumably his earlier mark.

Thanks Werecow - I'll look at my other lists of marks to check.

I think the "3" in numbers 89 / 90 are a gothic stylized "z", but it's odd that it would be mirrored. Maybe it's a C and the bar at the top of the "3" is just the bottom of the crown?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

I think the "3" in numbers 89 / 90 are a gothic stylized "z", but it's odd that it would be mirrored. Maybe it's a C and the bar at the top of the "3" is just the bottom of the crown?

Interesting; this possibility (3 versus Z) was discussed a while back, idon't recall which thread.
Jehan Lhermite on his "Le Passetemps" work mentioned this smith; as also an author i didn't keep record who it was; do i ?
showpost.php
However i don't think the mark on the discussed sword is that of Sebastian Hernandez; but what do i know ...


.

[Triarii]

Thanks. I'll translate that if possible. Now wondering if it is a C - which for some reason I didn't look at. It's a bit malformed for that letter though.

[fernando]

That was the post i meant.



http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=27

[werecow]

Originally Posted by fernando

Interesting; this possibility (3 versus Z) was discussed a while back, idon't recall which thread.
Jehan Lhermite on his "Le Passetemps" work mentioned this smith; as also an author i didn't keep record who it was; do i ?
showpost.php
However i don't think the mark on the discussed sword is that of Sebastian Hernandez; but what do i know ...
.

To be honest I just kind of assumed the 3 in the list of makers marks must be a stylized Z because there is a Z in Hernandez and a 3 is a bit meaningless. But I agree it's probably not his mark, as I don't see why it would be mirrored.

But to echo your post, what do I know? }|:oP

[Jim McDougall]

The idea of the stylized '3' at this point for me is a bit out of reach, the image of the punzone is too pixelated for me to make out, also it is clearly much degenerated.
However, the 3 as a mark or element of punzone makers mark in Toledo seems to exist, and not only to Sebastian Hernandez, who has two recorded (59,60). ..but also Ignacio Fernandez (#69). What is puzzling is that it is a number, while many others use capital letters which seem to have nothing to do with the initials of the maker represented.

In the many years I have studied the markings and inscriptions on sword blades, I have of course encountered a great deal of opposition as this topic is far too esoteric for most scholarly attention. It is greatly subjective as these matters were mostly components of occult, magic and secret groups and followings.
Clearly we can only speculate, but it is intriguing to consider the various plausibilities, and occasionally some compelling possibilities have come to light.

With this punzone, as with many, the most reliable perspective is in noting the shape overall, and observing the spurious use of these as often seen. Coupling that with the blade style with comparable period examples is probably the best course.

Interestingly, the use of the number 3, I have seen on the blades of Thomas Gill, a Birmingham, England maker on some of his blades at the forte in the 1780s,90s. This does not seem to correspond to other markings which would suggest any administrative protocols.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The idea of the stylized '3' at this point for me is a bit out of reach, the image of the punzone is too pixelated for me to make out, also it is clearly much degenerated.
However, the 3 as a mark or element of punzone makers mark in Toledo seems to exist, and not only to Sebastian Hernandez, who has two recorded (59,60). ..but also Ignacio Fernandez (#69). What is puzzling is that it is a number, while many others use capital letters which seem to have nothing to do with the initials of the maker represented...

Jim you mean 89,90 .
I thought that the odds have shown us that the stylized figure is not a '3' but a 'Z', as approached now and a while back .
And yes, the foggy pictures provided show no evidence of the discussed mark being that of one of the suggested smiths, also as here approached .

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The idea of the stylized '3' at this point for me is a bit out of reach, the image of the punzone is too pixelated for me to make out, also it is clearly much degenerated.
However, the 3 as a mark or element of punzone makers mark in Toledo seems to exist, and not only to Sebastian Hernandez, who has two recorded (59,60). ..but also Ignacio Fernandez (#69). What is puzzling is that it is a number, while many others use capital letters which seem to have nothing to do with the initials of the maker represented.

Both Hernandez and Fernandez end in a 'z', which might explain their use of the 3 (if it was in fact a stylized 'z').

[Jim McDougall]

I usually take a picture, go to 'PAINT' and use the size reduction feature, then save. This way the pics go from monstrous size to viewable, also making them compatible to the post in the thread.

[fernando]

A detail to take into consideration is that, the new upload features do not reject too large pictures; only bring them to limit size (1200 bits...). This may cause some inconsistecy among the same series of pictures; maybe some within the lot are smaller (trimmed) and unexpectedely grow bigger by program reflection. Just guessing .

[Triarii]

I pasted them into the word doc to try and avoid that. There's two shots of each side of the ricasso.

Another shot attached.