Heinrich Kolle

Jim McDougall · 15th July 2022, 07:51 PM

The idea of the stylized '3' at this point for me is a bit out of reach, the image of the punzone is too pixelated for me to make out, also it is clearly much degenerated.
However, the 3 as a mark or element of punzone makers mark in Toledo seems to exist, and not only to Sebastian Hernandez, who has two recorded (59,60). ..but also Ignacio Fernandez (#69). What is puzzling is that it is a number, while many others use capital letters which seem to have nothing to do with the initials of the maker represented.

In the many years I have studied the markings and inscriptions on sword blades, I have of course encountered a great deal of opposition as this topic is far too esoteric for most scholarly attention. It is greatly subjective as these matters were mostly components of occult, magic and secret groups and followings.
Clearly we can only speculate, but it is intriguing to consider the various plausibilities, and occasionally some compelling possibilities have come to light.

With this punzone, as with many, the most reliable perspective is in noting the shape overall, and observing the spurious use of these as often seen. Coupling that with the blade style with comparable period examples is probably the best course.

Interestingly, the use of the number 3, I have seen on the blades of Thomas Gill, a Birmingham, England maker on some of his blades at the forte in the 1780s,90s. This does not seem to correspond to other markings which would suggest any administrative protocols.

fernando · 15th July 2022, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The idea of the stylized '3' at this point for me is a bit out of reach, the image of the punzone is too pixelated for me to make out, also it is clearly much degenerated.
However, the 3 as a mark or element of punzone makers mark in Toledo seems to exist, and not only to Sebastian Hernandez, who has two recorded (59,60). ..but also Ignacio Fernandez (#69). What is puzzling is that it is a number, while many others use capital letters which seem to have nothing to do with the initials of the maker represented...

Jim you mean 89,90

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I thought that the odds have shown us that the stylized figure is not a '3' but a 'Z', as approached now and a while back

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And yes, the foggy pictures provided show no evidence of the discussed mark being that of one of the suggested smiths, also as here approached

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werecow · 16th July 2022, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The idea of the stylized '3' at this point for me is a bit out of reach, the image of the punzone is too pixelated for me to make out, also it is clearly much degenerated.
However, the 3 as a mark or element of punzone makers mark in Toledo seems to exist, and not only to Sebastian Hernandez, who has two recorded (59,60). ..but also Ignacio Fernandez (#69). What is puzzling is that it is a number, while many others use capital letters which seem to have nothing to do with the initials of the maker represented.

Both Hernandez and Fernandez end in a 'z', which might explain their use of the 3 (if it was in fact a stylized 'z').

fernando · 16th July 2022, 12:50 PM

Exending further on previously posted assumption by Don Enrique de Leguina in his work LOS MAESTROS ESPADEROS by (1897 ?) and the paper "Tres
espadas de la época de Felipe II conservadas en la Armeria del Palacio Real de Madrid" by Fernando A. Martin, the evidence that Sebastian Hernandez (and son) personal symbol was a Z and not a 3, seems to be unbeatable.

,

Jim McDougall · 16th July 2022, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Exending further on previously posted assumption by Don Enrique de Leguina in his work LOS MAESTROS ESPADEROS by (1897 ?) and the paper "Tres
espadas de la época de Felipe II conservadas en la Armeria del Palacio Real de Madrid" by Fernando A. Martin, the evidence that Sebastian Hernandez (and son) personal symbol was a Z and not a 3, seems to be unbeatable.

,

Well proven Fernando!!! Since the use of letters (as initials or ???) is well established, and no other use of numbers seems apparent....the letter Z is it. It is hard to figure why the selection of the last letter of a name is used but as observers hundreds of years later, who knows what idiosyncrasies were at hand. With the 'P' some have suggested 'Pedro' which was indeed the name of some the makers, but again, inconsistencies prevail.

fernando · 17th July 2022, 01:00 PM

Jim, you will notice that a great part of the punzones listed in the nomina have letters that, to us, have nothing to do with their names ... first or family ones. Smiths were wise and they sure knew what they meant with those ... but we don't. Apparently in some cases the letter refers to the place where they came from, or worked before ... but not all.
I have sent email to a true specialist, asking for his perspective over the Hernandez punzon symbol. Hopefuly he will answer my question and has ever given some thought on this subject.

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2022, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, you will notice that a great part of the punzones listed in the nomina have letters that, to us, have nothing to do with their names ... first or family ones. Smiths were wise and they sure knew what they meant with those ... but we don't. Apparently in some cases the letter refers to the place where they came from, or worked before ... but not all.
I have sent email to a true specialist, asking for his perspective over the Hernandez punzon symbol. Hopefuly he will answer my question and has ever given some thought on this subject.

Thats a great point Fernando! Knowing that the Toledo mark was a T of course, it seems quite likely that the letters may have related to the locations where these smiths worked, much as your suggestion of Zaragosa. While Toledo of course carried the famed reputation, there were certainly shops in other locations surrounding the region.

I seem to have track of the history of the Palomares nomina, which you thoroughly described at some point over the years. Can you remind me of how and when this key compilation was originated? I wonder if its sources might have clues to older records that might have such lost details.

fernando · 17th July 2022, 04:22 PM

Alo like the 'S' in the Sahagun family punzones reflects their origin, if i recall.
Let me see if manage to upload here the Palomares article; where i guess there are no clues on what we are looking for, any how.

PS
No, too heavy to upload here; will send to you by email; and hope you can read Spanish (Castillian)

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16th July 2022, 12:50 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Exending further on previously posted assumption by Don Enrique de Leguina in his work LOS MAESTROS ESPADEROS by (1897 ?) and the paper "Tres espadas de la época de Felipe II conservadas en la Armeria del Palacio Real de Madrid" by Fernando A. Martin, the evidence that Sebastian Hernandez (and son) personal symbol was a Z and not a 3, seems to be unbeatable. , Attached Images

15th July 2022, 07:51 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	The idea of the stylized '3' at this point for me is a bit out of reach, the image of the punzone is too pixelated for me to make out, also it is clearly much degenerated. However, the 3 as a mark or element of punzone makers mark in Toledo seems to exist, and not only to Sebastian Hernandez, who has two recorded (59,60). ..but also Ignacio Fernandez (#69). What is puzzling is that it is a number, while many others use capital letters which seem to have nothing to do with the initials of the maker represented. In the many years I have studied the markings and inscriptions on sword blades, I have of course encountered a great deal of opposition as this topic is far too esoteric for most scholarly attention. It is greatly subjective as these matters were mostly components of occult, magic and secret groups and followings. Clearly we can only speculate, but it is intriguing to consider the various plausibilities, and occasionally some compelling possibilities have come to light. With this punzone, as with many, the most reliable perspective is in noting the shape overall, and observing the spurious use of these as often seen. Coupling that with the blade style with comparable period examples is probably the best course. Interestingly, the use of the number 3, I have seen on the blades of Thomas Gill, a Birmingham, England maker on some of his blades at the forte in the 1780s,90s. This does not seem to correspond to other markings which would suggest any administrative protocols.

17th July 2022, 01:00 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, you will notice that a great part of the punzones listed in the nomina have letters that, to us, have nothing to do with their names ... first or family ones. Smiths were wise and they sure knew what they meant with those ... but we don't. Apparently in some cases the letter refers to the place where they came from, or worked before ... but not all. I have sent email to a true specialist, asking for his perspective over the Hernandez punzon symbol. Hopefuly he will answer my question and has ever given some thought on this subject.

17th July 2022, 04:22 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Alo like the 'S' in the Sahagun family punzones reflects their origin, if i recall. Let me see if manage to upload here the Palomares article; where i guess there are no clues on what we are looking for, any how. PS No, too heavy to upload here; will send to you by email; and hope you can read Spanish (Castillian) .