Katzbalger - request for assistance in identifying blade mark

[df1967]

Maybe this pic is better

[fernando]

Unfortunately my copy of this book doesn't have the the section with the marks index. It was a fellow forumite that sent me the scan (or photos) of such pages, some of them taken in a poor conditin, like the present one. Perhaps some member with te complete book will scan this page and sow it in a more clear condition ... Philip ? .
I doubt that the text goes into detailed info on the smith or his mark, anyhow; maybe only the name given to this type of symbol.


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[Lee]

Scan of text from Armi Bianche Italiane, p. 354:

[fernando]

Thank you Lee,
As i suspected, there is no mentioning of the smith, or of the symbol, except that the blade is 'marked in the middle' (marcata al medio); my interpretation subject to correction, of course.

[Victrix]

I’m not an Italian speaker but understand the sword is believed to have belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Gian_Giacomo_Trivulzio) and here is a photo of the sword in its entirety. Not sure what conclusions we can draw from that concerning the katzbalger under discussion.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

I’m not an Italian speaker but understand the sword is believed to have belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Gian_Giacomo_Trivulzio) and here is a photo of the sword in its entirety. Not sure what conclusions we can draw from that concerning the katzbalger under discussion.

You are correct; as per post 20# the caption in the book refers that the sword probably (probabilmente) belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio, Marshal of France. It also mentions that the sword was decorated by Ercole dei Fedeli (circa 1499) a famous Italian (Jewish) goldsmith and master sword engraver. I gather that the inlaid mark would be that of the sword smith (forgerer) and not of Fedeli.
... But i would not draw conclusions that such mark ought to be the same as in the katzbalger; as i said, only a possible equivalence ... for what is worth .



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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

You are correct; as per post 20# the caption in the book refers that the sword probably (probabilmente) belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio, Marshal of France. It also mentions that the sword was decorated by Ercole dei Fedeli (circa 1499) a famous Italian (Jewish) goldsmith and master sword engraver. I gather that the inlaid mark would be that of the sword smith (forgerer) and not of Fedeli.
... But i would not draw conclusions that such mark ought to be the same as in the katzbalger; as i said, only a possible equivalence ... for what is worth .



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This is a most important entry into this discussion, thank you Fernando for the excerpts from "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1980) which clearly depicts the marking on this amazing sword, and thank you Lee for the copy of the page which adds the detail.

It would seem this mark was likely in use before the 1499 date noted by the attribution to this figure in accord. This would suggest that the mark was in use prior to that date, and of course likely remained in use after for some time. I believe that the mark would have been added along with the engraved decoration by the artist, but would be to the forger of the blade.
Blades were typically decorated by artisans who worked for the various masters and shops, which might have had several bladesmiths.

Normally the mark would be to the shop or forge, not necessarily to one maker (the Ferrara's worked at the forge of another master, which was why the paucity of signed examples by them), or at least this has been my understanding.

That blades so marked would be sent to Germany for mounting would not be surprising, just as they were to other centers in the Italian regions where they were forged.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Unfortunately my copy of this book doesn't have the the section with the marks index. It was a fellow forumite that sent me the scan (or photos) of such pages, some of them taken in a poor conditin, like the present one. Perhaps some member with te complete book will scan this page and sow it in a more clear condition ... Philip ? .
I doubt that the text goes into detailed info on the smith or his mark, anyhow; maybe only the name given to this type of symbol.


.

Sorry, Nando, my copy of [IArmi Bianche Italiane[/I] is an edition printed without the marks section, too! Same editor, I guess you and I have the economy version

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

Sorry, Nando, my copy of [IArmi Bianche Italiane[/I] is an edition printed without the marks section, too! Same editor, I guess you and I have the economy version

So we stand together Filipe ... or we would; my copy was a gift; can not complain .

[cornelistromp]

The castle tower mark, with 3 or 4 points, often seen on wide Italian blades from the end of the 15th century, are all punched into the blade and without latten, as far as I know.
The mark of the sword under discussion is chisseled and finished with a latten inlay. This in combination with the orb and cross does not indicate an Italian origin.I would look more towards Solingen or else.

best,
jasper

[df1967]

Also possible jasper, all which we are doing are speculating, nevertheless on a high standard. In such cases, after more than 500 years, nobody could be for sure how or who the manufacture was nore with which components they worked. Anyhow, they where for sure master of their craft, this and the historical terms made this field so fascinating for me!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

The castle tower mark, with 3 or 4 points, often seen on wide Italian blades from the end of the 15th century, are all punched into the blade and without latten, as far as I know.
The mark of the sword under discussion is chisseled and finished with a latten inlay. This in combination with the orb and cross does not indicate an Italian origin.I would look more towards Solingen or else.

best,
jasper

While the use of latten, as suggested, is notably a Solingen (or Passau?) convention, I would note that this 'castle' mark (with four crenellations) is more to the example shown in the excerpt from Lenciewicz , where it is shown as from 'Italia', however in profile it seems markedly different from the discussion sword example.


The particular configuration seen on this blade appears to me more of a 'trident', and with the obvious traditional connection to the 'gladiator'.
The use of latten does not confine its presence to Germany, however the use of the cross and orb does seem to do so.

This compounds the familiar problem of makers from one country or region, working in other areas retaining their styles, character and convention in their work despite the contrary geographic classification.
For example, cuphilts of Milanese form made in regions of Lyon in France etc.

The plot thickens

[Victrix]

For what’s it’s worth, Milan is also a Catholic Archdiocese headed by an Archbishop whose symbol is a double cross. ”The Archdiocese of Milan is the metropolitan see of the ecclesiastical province of Milan, which includes the suffragan dioceses of Bergamo, Brescia, Como, Crema, Cremona, Lodi, Mantova, Pavia, and Vigevano.” (source: Wikipedia).

I would just make the observation that the Katzbalger under discussion has a Germanic looking blade (IÂ’ve heard similar diamond cross section shaped blades described as Saxon in style). Solingen was wellknown to add other famous bladesmithÂ’s marks on their blades. The Italian swords shown so far with the trident mark all look typically Italian: flat and wide with very shallow fullers. ItÂ’s possible of course that the bladesmith was very versatile and also produced Germanic looking blades for the Germanic markets, or even traveled to Solingen to work there (?), although these guilds were pretty much closed shops so he would need special invitation.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I would note that this 'castle' mark (with four crenellations)...

Not so important but, James Mann (Wallace Coll.) doesn't see those as 'castle' marks, but 'rake-like' marks (A741, A743, A747) .