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#1 |
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Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Germany
Posts: 47
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Thanks gentleman for your valid answer to my question, highly appreciated! I have not thought to find this smith Mark anywhere as iam looking for it since a long time! Does the book says on which blade this mark was on?
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#2 |
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Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
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The book just states Italia. So the mark appears on a sword believed to be Italian. Obviously this sword can be fitted with a German blade. I would have thought this katzbalger has a Passau blade, but the double cross on the orb indicates an Archbishopric/diocese. Lenciewicz’s book shows a mark (see below) with a doublecross from Solingen, but the orb looks different from yours, but could still be Solingen. So how common are latten marks on Solingen blades? And are there orbs with a doublecrosses on any Passau blades?
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#3 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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These references are simply compendiums of marks drawn from various sources whether museum holdings, private collections or published material including markings seen on the subject weapons.
In most cases, these are presumed from the context in which they are found, which as we know can be notably compromised, such as the case with museums in some circumstances. As always, errors are always possible with anyone, but the possibilities must be recognized. While in most cases museums strive for accuracy and reliable notations, but no amount of effort can prevent inevitable errors. In many cases weapons that are donated or presented come as part of collected examples which may have been comingled with groups from other sources from those in which they are included. There was considerable traffic of blades between Italy, Germany and Spain which meant that a blade found on an Italian hilt, might well have been from Germany but its context presumed it to be Italian. In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967) for example, there is a large plate of examples of the 'Passau running wolf' which shows many variations of this stylized mark, each with a date/year. This illustration suggests some sort of chronological development of the well known marking, which of course is patently incorrect. These marks were applied on blades as a kind of quality imbuement which evolved from a probably somewhat talismanic representation, and the character of the applications depended on the workmen placing them. The use of 'latten' (inlaid gold metal usually brass) was notably used by many shops in Solingen just as it had been in other centers such as Passau and others in these early centuries. Inlaid metal markings had been well known since Viking times and much earlier. Sword blades being exported to England even in the 17th century still used latten 'wolf' marks in many cases. As always, it was a matter of preference by shops or workers producing the blades rather than consistent practice. The cross and orb was of course not a makers mark, but a kind of religious device which may have had significance ecclesiastically (as Victrix has noted) or perhaps even the kind of quality suggested by the endorsement of the Church, as had been practiced since medieval times with swords and chivalry. In the case of the example Victrix posted, there have been initials or a mark enclosed in the orb, and these can often indeed be attributed to a particular maker or shop. I would note that in Spain and later Solingen, the 'anchor' was used as a device in similar manner, typically placed at the terminus of a fuller and part of the phrases etc. placed in the fuller or at blade center. These 'anchors' often had somewhat complex cross bars in varying number, and with serif type additions, which seem as if 'customized' by makers or inscribers using them. With symbolic convention, it is hard to say how much 'meaning' or significance all of this had, but tempting to consider possibilities. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th July 2021 at 05:08 PM. |
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#4 |
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The orb with a single cross was also used as a symbol for the Holy Roman Empire, which sometimes was at odds with the Vatican for temporal power. Not sure whether the single cross orbs sometimes seen on Passau swords is a Reichsapple or Bishopric orb. There is a katzbalger with similar shape in the Castel St Angelo in Rome which was excavated from the moat. It was believed to have been used by Imperial troops in a siege, if I remember correctly, but I believe the Vatican also employed Landesknechts as mercenaries. I was struck by the impressive size of this sword (see below).
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#5 |
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Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Germany
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Thanks for this pic, never saw this katzbalger. Typical German shape of around 1520, Schellenberg type as shown in the museum in Vienna. The Swiss katzbalger of the reisläufer had often a more open 8 as the hand protection, as mentioned in a book of edged weapons of the museum in Zürich.
I guess most of the blacksmith marks are not to identify, considering the fact that over centuries every town had the own blacksmith who could at least to basic halberds for example, and as it is today every smith had his own mark. Only the best once we could identify today I believe… |
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