Katzbalger - request for assistance in identifying blade mark

[Interested Party]

One bit of data following up on post #7's theme. The "M" at the bottom of post #10's mark is a religious symbol as well. I read this in one of my grandfather's books on wood carving about 25 year's ago so take this tidbit for what it is worth.

The book (I can't remember the name of the book or the author offhand, but I think I moved the book to my Dad's after my grandfather's death. So there is a chance I will be able to site this source at a later date.) had a section on the Madonna and her representations in folk art styles. This type of "M" was said to stand for Mary but also had a older context in relation to mountains in the pagan sense as objects of veneration in their own right. I believe it was attributed to a Swiss origin (I'm not saying the mark itself is Swiss). I have always been fascinated with the layering of belief systems and artistic allusion's so the chapter made a deep impression on me. Whether the smaller peak could be considered a "child" I have always wondered.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

One bit of data following up on post #7's theme. The "M" at the bottom of post #10's mark is a religious symbol as well. I read this in one of my grandfather's books on wood carving about 25 year's ago so take this tidbit for what it is worth.

The book (I can't remember the name of the book or the author offhand, but I think I moved the book to my Dad's after my grandfather's death. So there is a chance I will be able to site this source at a later date.) had a section on the Madonna and her representations in folk art styles. This type of "M" was said to stand for Mary but also had a older context in relation to mountains in the pagan sense as objects of veneration in their own right. I believe it was attributed to a Swiss origin (I'm not saying the mark itself is Swiss). I have always been fascinated with the layering of belief systems and artistic allusion's so the chapter made a deep impression on me. Whether the smaller peak could be considered a "child" I have always wondered.

Very interesting observations which seem plausible. I saw it as an upside down W but it makes more sense as a M. This letter must have had some significance since one might otherwise assume that the maker would use his initials B A in the symbol. To use the letter M for Maria in a Roman Catholic ecclesiastical symbol makes sense. I believe these symbols are far from random as people spent a lot of effort to put them there. We just need to re-learn their interpretation.

[fernando]

A bit of a silly question, df ...
The way your images were posted, the blade is facing down, so we have to invert the position of the cross and orb engraving to have it in the right position, right ?
What about the inlaid smith's mark; is it in the right position or should also be inverted ?
We would have that either the mark in Victrix's post #7 is more towards your case or perhaps a possible equivalence is seen in a sword illustrated in Armi Bianche Italiane.


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[df1967]

Wau thanks, this seems to be the mark, in the same position also as on your picture.Do you know what this Italian book is saying over this smith mark? Unbelievable what knowledge is on this website!!!

[df1967]

Maybe this pic is better

[fernando]

Unfortunately my copy of this book doesn't have the the section with the marks index. It was a fellow forumite that sent me the scan (or photos) of such pages, some of them taken in a poor conditin, like the present one. Perhaps some member with te complete book will scan this page and sow it in a more clear condition ... Philip ? .
I doubt that the text goes into detailed info on the smith or his mark, anyhow; maybe only the name given to this type of symbol.


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[Lee]

Scan of text from Armi Bianche Italiane, p. 354:

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Unfortunately my copy of this book doesn't have the the section with the marks index. It was a fellow forumite that sent me the scan (or photos) of such pages, some of them taken in a poor conditin, like the present one. Perhaps some member with te complete book will scan this page and sow it in a more clear condition ... Philip ? .
I doubt that the text goes into detailed info on the smith or his mark, anyhow; maybe only the name given to this type of symbol.


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Sorry, Nando, my copy of [IArmi Bianche Italiane[/I] is an edition printed without the marks section, too! Same editor, I guess you and I have the economy version

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

One bit of data following up on post #7's theme. The "M" at the bottom of post #10's mark is a religious symbol as well. I read this in one of my grandfather's books on wood carving about 25 year's ago so take this tidbit for what it is worth.

The book (I can't remember the name of the book or the author offhand, but I think I moved the book to my Dad's after my grandfather's death. So there is a chance I will be able to site this source at a later date.) had a section on the Madonna and her representations in folk art styles. This type of "M" was said to stand for Mary but also had a older context in relation to mountains in the pagan sense as objects of veneration in their own right. I believe it was attributed to a Swiss origin (I'm not saying the mark itself is Swiss). I have always been fascinated with the layering of belief systems and artistic allusion's so the chapter made a deep impression on me. Whether the smaller peak could be considered a "child" I have always wondered.

This is a wonderful and fascinating entry !!! Thank you!
What you refer to is known as the 'Black Madonna' (due to the blackened figure) and was the object of much venerated following as a relic during these times and these regions. I have a book on this but as you, I need to retrieve it.
The irregular joining of the 'V's to me suggests perhaps depiction of mountains as you mention, and these were figured into much symbolism it seems in varying allegorical sense.
This is an outstanding theme to pursue in learning more on these cross and orb markings.