Sumatran / Bugis ID

Moshah · 4th November 2009, 09:10 AM

Wow, quite a nice piece you have there! Thanks for sharing those pix!

For the blade discussed, it is actually rather broad, and yes it could be a sumbawa as well. However the pamor works is not something I expect from a sumbawa blade. Pardon my limited knowledge, but I've mostly seen sumbawa with nickel pamor, and the pamor orientation is scattered and very seldom with a specific pamor, moreover pamor miring. But I just don't know, I did not seen enough sumbawa kerises to address a valid comments here, thus I just say what I see...

How about the hilt? Did you recognized the influences? It should have major influences rather than a liberty work of art, didn't it?

khalifah muda · 4th November 2009, 09:16 AM

For the hilt it is hard to say...very subjective....but it has some Sumatran/Palembang influence in the sense of its carving motifs. Borneo also possible. Anyway, nowadays there are alot of skillful keris makers in this region with their own creation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Wow, quite a nice piece you have there! Thanks for sharing those pix!

For the blade discussed, it is actually rather broad, and yes it could be a sumbawa as well. However the pamor works is not something I expect from a sumbawa blade. Pardon my limited knowledge, but I've mostly seen sumbawa with nickel pamor, and the pamor orientation is scattered and very seldom with a specific pamor, moreover pamor miring. But I just don't know, I did not seen enough sumbawa kerises to address a valid comments here, thus I just say what I see...

How about the hilt? Did you recognized the influences? It should have major influences rather than a liberty work of art, didn't it?

khalifah muda · 4th November 2009, 09:22 AM

'Sumbawa - nickel blade' : For your info. Sumbawa do have blades which comprises of metal composite from nickel, other metals and besi baja.

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalifah muda

For the hilt it is hard to say...very subjective....but it has some Sumatran/Palembang influence in the sense of its carving motifs. Borneo also possible. Anyway, nowadays there are alot of skillful keris makers in this region with their own creation.

Moshah · 4th November 2009, 09:49 AM

That's my point; I've seen most sumbawa with nickel pamors, and of course the besi baja in the middle. I've seen sumbawa with meteorite pamor too, or claimed to be of meteorite pamor. Since there is vivid differences between nickel pamor and meteorite pamor, so I take it as it is told

This blade pamor works are unlike any sumbawa pieces i've ever seen. Obviously no pamor gunungan / junjung darjat at the sorsoran, and I dunno but it doesn't looks like nickel too.

David · 4th November 2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

I've seen sumbawa with meteorite pamor too, or claimed to be of meteorite pamor. Since there is vivid differences between nickel pamor and meteorite pamor, so I take it as it is told

This blade pamor works are unlike any sumbawa pieces i've ever seen. Obviously no pamor gunungan / junjung darjat at the sorsoran, and I dunno but it doesn't looks like nickel too.

hmmm.... are you seem to be implying that you suspect the pamor of your keris might be from meteorite? We have had many discussions on these boards about meteoric pamor and the general consensus that i took away from those threads was that it is pretty much near to impossible to identify pamor as definitely being meteorite or not without provenance to support it. I am not sure what "vivid differences" you have noted between terrestrial nickel meteoric pamor and one should keep in mind that meteoric pamor generally is nickel, just not nickel from a terrestrial source.

David · 4th November 2009, 12:25 PM

If i had to make a call on this keris which obviously has a mix of influences working for it i think i would guess the origins of the blade as Bugis influenced Sumatran. To me the sheath is clearly Sulawesi. Does it have a tight fit? (Was it made for the blade?)
The hilt also seems Sumatran, though i agree that motifs are some that i have not seen before.

Moshah · 4th November 2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

hmmm.... are you seem to be implying that you suspect the pamor of your keris might be from meteorite? We have had many discussions on these boards about meteoric pamor and the general consensus that i took away from those threads was that it is pretty much near to impossible to identify pamor as definitely being meteorite or not without provenance to support it. I am not sure what "vivid differences" you have noted between terrestrial nickel meteoric pamor and one should keep in mind that meteoric pamor generally is nickel, just not nickel from a terrestrial source.

No, David you got me wrong. What I am trying to say is I've seen a bugis keris with meteorite pamor (not MY keris was having meteorite pamor, I wouldn't dare to admit that unless with proper provenance too

). The bugis keris with meteorite pamor belongs to someone that has learned keris from javanese experts and I did not expect people of this caliber would say something bluntly. I also seen some keris with meteorite pamor from TMII, which were told by people who do tangguhan keris there. But I am not sure 100%, you know...

However, as you said, meteorite also contains nickel but perhaps when it's used for making pamor, the proportions are different from our earthly nickels, so it does make the difference.

khalifah muda · 4th November 2009, 01:58 PM

hi David,

i think there's some confusion here....i'm getting confused too.. What i'm trying to say was, Sumbawa doesn't only have blade with nickel kinda layout...they have all kind of metals used. Nothing meteorite addressing MOshah's blade in this case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

hmmm.... are you seem to be implying that you suspect the pamor of your keris might be from meteorite? We have had many discussions on these boards about meteoric pamor and the general consensus that i took away from those threads was that it is pretty much near to impossible to identify pamor as definitely being meteorite or not without provenance to support it. I am not sure what "vivid differences" you have noted between terrestrial nickel meteoric pamor and one should keep in mind that meteoric pamor generally is nickel, just not nickel from a terrestrial source.

David · 4th November 2009, 02:47 PM

I was really only address the suggestion that there are "vivid differences" (as in visual differences) between meteoric and terrestrial nickel pamor. I don't think there are and i am not so sure that even the "experts" can tell based on visual observation alone. In fact in our discussions here there was even a question as to whether scientific structural analysis can tell the difference as any structure inheerent to meteorite would be destroyed in the forging process. So i personally take any assertion that a pamor is meteoric with a huge grain of salt regardless of the amount of expertise the assessor might have.

4th November 2009, 09:10 AM	#1
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Wow, quite a nice piece you have there! Thanks for sharing those pix! For the blade discussed, it is actually rather broad, and yes it could be a sumbawa as well. However the pamor works is not something I expect from a sumbawa blade. Pardon my limited knowledge, but I've mostly seen sumbawa with nickel pamor, and the pamor orientation is scattered and very seldom with a specific pamor, moreover pamor miring. But I just don't know, I did not seen enough sumbawa kerises to address a valid comments here, thus I just say what I see... How about the hilt? Did you recognized the influences? It should have major influences rather than a liberty work of art, didn't it?

4th November 2009, 09:49 AM	#4
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	That's my point; I've seen most sumbawa with nickel pamors, and of course the besi baja in the middle. I've seen sumbawa with meteorite pamor too, or claimed to be of meteorite pamor. Since there is vivid differences between nickel pamor and meteorite pamor, so I take it as it is told This blade pamor works are unlike any sumbawa pieces i've ever seen. Obviously no pamor gunungan / junjung darjat at the sorsoran, and I dunno but it doesn't looks like nickel too.

4th November 2009, 12:25 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	If i had to make a call on this keris which obviously has a mix of influences working for it i think i would guess the origins of the blade as Bugis influenced Sumatran. To me the sheath is clearly Sulawesi. Does it have a tight fit? (Was it made for the blade?) The hilt also seems Sumatran, though i agree that motifs are some that i have not seen before.

4th November 2009, 02:47 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I was really only address the suggestion that there are "vivid differences" (as in visual differences) between meteoric and terrestrial nickel pamor. I don't think there are and i am not so sure that even the "experts" can tell based on visual observation alone. In fact in our discussions here there was even a question as to whether scientific structural analysis can tell the difference as any structure inheerent to meteorite would be destroyed in the forging process. So i personally take any assertion that a pamor is meteoric with a huge grain of salt regardless of the amount of expertise the assessor might have.