Meteoric Patrem-Made In England...

A. G. Maisey · 8th April 2008, 09:49 AM

Forget grinders and dremels and such like.

The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper.

Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder.

Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder?

It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.

ferrylaki · 9th April 2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Forget grinders and dremels and such like.

The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper.

Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder.

Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder?

It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.

I'm planning to buy a grinder for my keris project, but as Alan mention before about grinder fact, I guess a cold steel chisel would be just fine. spending more hours for the ricikan is the best way to make keris just like the old times.

people nowdays use grinder to shape the " odo odo" and the " gigir sapi"
and the result is more damage for biginers .
"It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade" as Alan said...than I must practice my patience first before I start working on my sogokan...couse if dont have patience you could destroy an entirely job on the ricikan. I found "no way back" on the ricikan job.

As an information Michel. I'm also trying a small mendak for my keris, it's not a patrem but its smaller than a normal keris...hope a manage to find two or three so I can offfer my spare for you... good day every body...

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

A. G. Maisey · 9th April 2008, 03:13 AM

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

ferrylaki · 9th April 2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

Hi Alan,
Thanks Alot for your advices. I found it very very difficult on shaping the greneng. We use a small jeweller saw here. and always manage to break the saw. I'll try using hack saw and small round files on the greneng.
I'll take some pictures on the keris we're working and some measures of the keris. Thank you for every advices.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

A. G. Maisey · 9th April 2008, 01:44 PM

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

ferrylaki · 10th April 2008, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

This keris is the first project which start to take its shape.
the picture took this morning ( 05.40am jakarta time) .
the greneng work done using small jewellers saw, done by a very skilled man for sure. when I find the fact using small jewellers saw is too diffficult to do, I start looking for another method for the greneng work. I really greatfull for Alan's suggestion. I'll try it on my next keris project. I'm still looking a suitable dhapur and ricikan style for this "saton" . A straight keris it gonna be , for a beginner like my self tilam upih would be great. I'm planning to make a PBX style...thick blade, odo-odo, etc.
Just cant wait till next week to start.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

A. G. Maisey · 10th April 2008, 05:40 AM

How about tilam sari? You can give it a little bit of pizzazz without trying for more than you are capable of.

The absolute first brick you need to lay is the blade angle. Get that right and the rest will follow.

8th April 2008, 09:49 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Forget grinders and dremels and such like. The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper. Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder. Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder? It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.

9th April 2008, 03:13 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type. You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone. The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat. You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them. The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge. The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

9th April 2008, 01:44 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

10th April 2008, 05:40 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	How about tilam sari? You can give it a little bit of pizzazz without trying for more than you are capable of. The absolute first brick you need to lay is the blade angle. Get that right and the rest will follow.