A Berber saber?

[Jim McDougall]

OK, Rick! "Land of a Thousand Dances"!! boogalooo!!!

Anyway, I'm way confused here. How is a loosely compared scabbard the key identifying factor in observing a weapon? While it is true that leather scabbards are key in North African weapons, we beg to ask what an Indonesian style hilt is doing in North Africa. Certainly we have always recognized the vast scope of trade and the diffusion of weapons via those routes, however within certain cultural spheres the locally preferred hilt forms prevail, and would not likely develop multipally.

I know that I was drawn initially to North Africa as well, but I had not yet considered Indonesia as the weapons in that sphere were basically outside my field of study.

The scabbard on the Manding sword is diagonally geometric rather than checkerboard, and such geometrics are clearly widely used in many cultural spheres, so this comparison while interesting, I would still consider inconclusive.

As always! More research to be done

All the best,
Jim

P.S. I wish these could turn out to be Berber! That would vindicate my original suggestion and prove this old radar of mine was still in working order, and I too would be dancin'!!

[Tim Simmons]

My praise might reflect that I had only been awake say 30mins. That is right that the scabbard does look as is it could well be from the PI or Mexico/South America. Perhaps it is not North African. I only know that many blades of several forms from North Africa come with this sort of scabbard with that flap bit. It is possible that the scabbard has been put with the sword it does look rather like a machete scabbard. Am I allowed to change my mind back to my original thoughts. An Iberian influence would not be out of place in Timor and there abouts .

[Rick]

Hi Jim, just funnin' .
I'm just pretty convinced these are not SEA.

The scabbard does not look at all like SEA work or Philippine.
All the grommets used ?

[Jim McDougall]

Me too Rick!!!

That scabbard sure ain't SEA, but that hilt by the same token seems more and more Indonesian, and the hilt is the key here. We know the blade is probably British M1796, and the scabbard is ???? so we have to keep looking for a comparable hilt form, and most the examples that correspond seem to be in Van Zonneveld.

All the best,
Jim

[FenrisWolf]

In order to keep the reference handy (for when it drops out of ebay's system) here's the scabbard on the second sword, along with a closeup:



Keep in mind this did NOT come with the sword that started this thread, but with a second example with a similar hilt.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The scabbard on the Manding sword is diagonally geometric rather than checkerboard, and such geometrics are clearly widely used in many cultural spheres, so this comparison while interesting, I would still consider inconclusive.

As always! More research to be done

Good point Jim, Id missed that, perhaps in that case, we should look at the Dogon for a possible North African insperation to such cheqerboard designs though? whether by diffusian to surronding tribes or not?



To quote from.. http://www.uiowa.edu/~africart/toc/people/Dogon.html


"The Dogon are best known for their extensive carving of masks and wooden figurative art. The primary colors used by the Dogon are usually red, black, and white, and popular patterns include spirals and checkerboard motifs, both of which can be traced to their origin stories."

I assume these handles were intialy dyed red & black? that how it appears, to my eye?

The origin of this pattern in the region is reputadly from one of the 4 anscersters of the tribe.{The Nomo.}...

"Often depicted is the blacksmith Nommo, usually with a horse. He was the first to descend to earth in an ark or by means of a rainbow, bearing seeds and he laid out the first fields for agriculture. The chequer board patterns are associated with him and those fields"

from.

http://artworld.uea.ac.uk/teaching_m...n/welcome.html

So that combined with The grip shape could be an evolution or hybrid of North African grips, Nimcha, Berber Saber, Bou Saadi. Would perhaps mean North Africa shouldnt be ruled out?

It certanly visualy would sit comfterably in a North African weapons collection.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

I see that is a belt loop on the scabbard not a flap, The stitching and leather work does not seem to me to be native to N. Africa. I see a Spanish/Portuguese machete style. Spanish Morroco? I do not think the Iberian influence in SE Asia can be ruled out either. It does still not fit a nimcha just as much as something from SE Asia.

[ariel]

The two notches on the handle of this one make it look very much like Nimcha's.
The first one was nebulous.
This one clinched the deal.

[spiral]

Fascinating to my mind that the front of the scabbard seems to carry the belt, strap or tie, holder? rather than the presuamably seamed rear, , has anyone seen other examples of this front belt hanger before? I canrt recall any, myself.In european or indeed any other designs? {Althoughf of course it is a similar front affixing the loops & buttons serve on traditional kukri.. but I digress.}

Spiral

[ariel]

Originally Posted by spiral

Fascinating to my mind that the front of the scabbard seems to carry the belt, strap or tie, holder? rather than the presuamably seamed rear, , has anyone seen other examples of this front belt hanger before? I canrt recall any, myself.In european or indeed any other designs? {Althoughf of course it is a similar front affixing the loops & buttons serve on traditional kukri.. but I digress.}

Spiral

Not necessarily: it could have been worn shashka-style: edge up. My Bedouin " shashkas", however, are : one with a baldrick arragement and another with a kind of leather ring around the scabbard ( wear it any way you choose...)
Artzi is the person whose brain should be picked. He forgot more about Middle Eastern weapons than all of us remember.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ariel

Not necessarily: it could have been worn shashka-style: edge up. .

My point was rather it was unlikely that the decoration was on the rear of the scabbard & the seam on the front?

That would remain the same whether worn edge up or down, I would imagine?

Spiral