Schiavona pommel - Page 2

dralin23 · 22nd June 2025, 05:28 PM

The handles on Shaivona swords are indeed quite varied. Some have a hole in the end of the handle, which is connected to the handle basket by a hook, which gives it additional stability. However, most of the handles I've seen on these swords don't have this hook, even though the curved end on the basket handle is present on almost all swords.

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2025, 08:36 PM

Thank you Dralin for posting these examples, which really illustrate the broad scope of the schiavona hilt form, far beyond the confines of Venice as long generally held.

The first example with the unusual helmeted figure, any ideas on what this might represent?
The basket character on these hilts of course follows the basic trellis pattern, but with often subtle variations that have enabled some degree of classification. But the pommels are another story!

Also, on the last example, with the thumb ring, does this suggest European origin? Germany, Austria? The flammard blade is also unusual!

dralin23 · Yesterday, 07:51 PM

hello jim,
Thank you for your response to my post. I'll try to give you or anyone else interested some more information about the two Shiavonas.
The first Shiavona is certainly something special, as I've rarely seen it in this form. I think it was made for an officer, and the hilt end was also custom-made.
The blade probably comes from an Austrian saber, although the dating suggests that the blade is probably older than the hilt. According to the well-known overview of hilt shapes for Shiavona swords, this sword is around the eighth pattern, which is dated 1780-1797...
But all in all, it is certainly an exceptional sword, and it would certainly be interesting to learn something about its original owner and his history.

The second sword is also unusual because it has a flamed blade, as you've already noticed.
The blade is signed on one side with "Francisco" and on the other side with "En Toledo."
It was supposed to imitate a Spanish blade made by Francisco in Toledo. However, the engraved running wolves, which are engraved opposite to the direction of the writing, suggest something else. To me, they indicate that it is a Solingen blade made in the mid-17th century.
It is certainly unusual in this composition, as such a flamed blade would not have had particularly good properties for a sword thrust.
I hope I have contributed a little to the discussion. If anyone has further information about this, I would be very grateful.

urbanspaceman · Today, 10:08 PM

That wolf looks like a Munsten family marking. They were in Hounslow and marked their blades with that wolf so everybody assumed they were Solingen imports, but they not have been as often they also had their name on too.
I'm not suggesting this was a Hounslow made blade however, just the provenance of that particular wolf.
Feel free to contradict me, I am always grateful.

22nd June 2025, 05:28 PM	#31
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 208	some other swordpommels at shiavona swords.. The handles on Shaivona swords are indeed quite varied. Some have a hole in the end of the handle, which is connected to the handle basket by a hook, which gives it additional stability. However, most of the handles I've seen on these swords don't have this hook, even though the curved end on the basket handle is present on almost all swords. Attached Images

Yesterday, 07:51 PM	#33
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 208	hello jim, Thank you for your response to my post. I'll try to give you or anyone else interested some more information about the two Shiavonas. The first Shiavona is certainly something special, as I've rarely seen it in this form. I think it was made for an officer, and the hilt end was also custom-made. The blade probably comes from an Austrian saber, although the dating suggests that the blade is probably older than the hilt. According to the well-known overview of hilt shapes for Shiavona swords, this sword is around the eighth pattern, which is dated 1780-1797... But all in all, it is certainly an exceptional sword, and it would certainly be interesting to learn something about its original owner and his history. The second sword is also unusual because it has a flamed blade, as you've already noticed. The blade is signed on one side with "Francisco" and on the other side with "En Toledo." It was supposed to imitate a Spanish blade made by Francisco in Toledo. However, the engraved running wolves, which are engraved opposite to the direction of the writing, suggest something else. To me, they indicate that it is a Solingen blade made in the mid-17th century. It is certainly unusual in this composition, as such a flamed blade would not have had particularly good properties for a sword thrust. I hope I have contributed a little to the discussion. If anyone has further information about this, I would be very grateful. Attached Images

Today, 10:08 PM	#34
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 633	Wolf That wolf looks like a Munsten family marking. They were in Hounslow and marked their blades with that wolf so everybody assumed they were Solingen imports, but they not have been as often they also had their name on too. I'm not suggesting this was a Hounslow made blade however, just the provenance of that particular wolf. Feel free to contradict me, I am always grateful.

22nd June 2025, 08:36 PM	#32
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,311	Thank you Dralin for posting these examples, which really illustrate the broad scope of the schiavona hilt form, far beyond the confines of Venice as long generally held. The first example with the unusual helmeted figure, any ideas on what this might represent? The basket character on these hilts of course follows the basic trellis pattern, but with often subtle variations that have enabled some degree of classification. But the pommels are another story! Also, on the last example, with the thumb ring, does this suggest European origin? Germany, Austria? The flammard blade is also unusual!