Two small daggers for comment/identification

[Sajen]

Hello dear members,

I have a liking for small daggers and knives, so both daggers come to me by accident!

I hope that someone would be able to tell me more about these, where from (the blades are not marked), which time frame and which handle material.
I don't think that the handle material is ivory of some sort like the seller thought, I guess it's faux ivory of some sort so the age would be early 20th century, just my guess.

The one with the big handle is 23,7 cm long with a blade from 12,4 cm.
the one with the flat handle is 22,7 cm long with a blade from 12,2 cm.

[Sajen]

Here are pictures from the one with the big handle.

[Sajen]

And here are some pictures from the one with the rather flat handle.
It seems that the blade was once rusted and someone polished it out later.

[M ELEY]

Hmmm. Well, these are in the style of mid to late 19th c. belt knives (some call them 'boot knives' as they were often hidden in a boot for quick self defense). These were popular in the U.S. with gamblers and saloon girls (soiled doves), who might wear them in a garder for quick access. The older types were often made in Sheffiled and sold here. Hilt materials for those types were usually ivory. Yours appear a little later (?), perhaps early 20th, but still in the time frame of 'old Western'. Hilt material could be Bakelite, an early plastic from c. 1900. I'm no expert on these, so let's leave room for someone to correct me!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hmmm. Well, these are in the style of mid to late 19th c. belt knives (some call them 'boot knives' as they were often hidden in a boot for quick self defense). These were popular in the U.S. with gamblers and saloon girls (soiled doves), who might wear them in a garder for quick access. The older types were often made in Sheffiled and sold here. Hilt materials for those types were usually ivory. Yours appear a little later (?), perhaps early 20th, but still in the time frame of 'old Western'. Hilt material could be Bakelite, an early plastic from c. 1900. I'm no expert on these, so let's leave room for someone to correct me!

Thank you very much for your comments! The one with the flat handle could be a garder dagger and I've seen similar ones before. So far I know these daggers have been common in Europe also, not only in the States. The other one with the bigger handle could be a gambler's dagger, but again, this is only my humble guess.

Best regards,
Detlef

[M ELEY]

Hello Sajan and I forgot to thank you for posting these. You are absolutely right that these types also saw service in Europe. Besides the American Southwest, there is also the Canadain frontier (Klondike gold rush, anybody?). There is a test you can do for Bakelite, where you put a part of the hilt in hot water and it produces a certain smell? I'll have to look it up again!

[Jim McDougall]

As well described by Mark, these mid 19th century stiletto type daggers were often used by (as he delicately put) 'soiled doves', and concealed in their clothing, a garter likely. It seems these relatively small but deadly daggers were well known also in England (many Sheffield made) and France. The influences in those countries were of course prevalent in the key metropolitan cities in America, but most prevalent in gold rush regions such as San Francisco and the Klondike as Mark mentions.

The biggest push for American makers seems to have been San Francisco (see Levines "Knife Makers of Old San Francisco " 1978).

The men preferred bowies and the unusual 'push daggers'.

These daggers discussed seem to be typically about 8.5" overall with 4" blade.
There seems to be some evidence of pitting, and the material of the hilt obviously not ivory but seems to be recalling the ivory and mother of pearl often used on the 19th c. examples. Really hard to say age of these, but surely well recognizes the form.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
If you search '19thC ivory hilt spear point Bowie knife' you should get some similar pieces. The enterprising Victorians, as today, freely used 'buzz words' i.e. Bowie, to market all manner of knives. Whether we would recognise them as typical Bowie knives is doubtful and open to interpretation, there is even a so-called cutlery hilted version.
Regards,
Norman.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello Sajan and I forgot to thank you for posting these. You are absolutely right that these types also saw service in Europe. Besides the American Southwest, there is also the Canadain frontier (Klondike gold rush, anybody?). There is a test you can do for Bakelite, where you put a part of the hilt in hot water and it produces a certain smell? I'll have to look it up again!

Thank you again, it was my pleasure to show them here.

So far I know there are other types of early plastic sorts than bakelite so I will be careful to test the handles this way.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As well described by Mark, these mid 19th century stiletto type daggers were often used by (as he delicately put) 'soiled doves', and concealed in their clothing, a garter likely. It seems these relatively small but deadly daggers were well known also in England (many Sheffield made) and France. The influences in those countries were of course prevalent in the key metropolitan cities in America, but most prevalent in gold rush regions such as San Francisco and the Klondike as Mark mentions.

The biggest push for American makers seems to have been San Francisco (see Levines "Knife Makers of Old San Francisco " 1978).

The men preferred bowies and the unusual 'push daggers'.

These daggers discussed seem to be typically about 8.5" overall with 4" blade.
There seems to be some evidence of pitting, and the material of the hilt obviously not ivory but seems to be recalling the ivory and mother of pearl often used on the 19th c. examples. Really hard to say age of these, but surely well recognizes the form.

Thank you Jim for your useful comment, like always! These small daggers were used in Germany as well, I've seen some marked with Solingen.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
If you search '19thC ivory hilt spear point Bowie knife' you should get some similar pieces. The enterprising Victorians, as today, freely used 'buzz words' i.e. Bowie, to market all manner of knives. Whether we would recognise them as typical Bowie knives is doubtful and open to interpretation, there is even a so-called cutlery hilted version.
Regards,
Norman.

Hello Norman,

Yes, some similar daggers pub up with the given search words but these both I wouldn't call bowie knife.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you Jim for your useful comment, like always! These small daggers were used in Germany as well, I've seen some marked with Solingen.

Best regards,
Detlef

Thats understandable, both France and Germany were very 'pop culture' in 1880s onward with deep interest in the wild west etc. so 'Bowie's were very popular. As Norman noted, nearly every knife became a 'Bowie' .

While Sheffield was producing blades for American markets from early in the 19th century, by the latter 19th Solingen got in the act too.