Two small daggers for comment/identification

[Jim McDougall]

As well described by Mark, these mid 19th century stiletto type daggers were often used by (as he delicately put) 'soiled doves', and concealed in their clothing, a garter likely. It seems these relatively small but deadly daggers were well known also in England (many Sheffield made) and France. The influences in those countries were of course prevalent in the key metropolitan cities in America, but most prevalent in gold rush regions such as San Francisco and the Klondike as Mark mentions.

The biggest push for American makers seems to have been San Francisco (see Levines "Knife Makers of Old San Francisco " 1978).

The men preferred bowies and the unusual 'push daggers'.

These daggers discussed seem to be typically about 8.5" overall with 4" blade.
There seems to be some evidence of pitting, and the material of the hilt obviously not ivory but seems to be recalling the ivory and mother of pearl often used on the 19th c. examples. Really hard to say age of these, but surely well recognizes the form.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
If you search '19thC ivory hilt spear point Bowie knife' you should get some similar pieces. The enterprising Victorians, as today, freely used 'buzz words' i.e. Bowie, to market all manner of knives. Whether we would recognise them as typical Bowie knives is doubtful and open to interpretation, there is even a so-called cutlery hilted version.
Regards,
Norman.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
If you search '19thC ivory hilt spear point Bowie knife' you should get some similar pieces. The enterprising Victorians, as today, freely used 'buzz words' i.e. Bowie, to market all manner of knives. Whether we would recognise them as typical Bowie knives is doubtful and open to interpretation, there is even a so-called cutlery hilted version.
Regards,
Norman.

Hello Norman,

Yes, some similar daggers pub up with the given search words but these both I wouldn't call bowie knife.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As well described by Mark, these mid 19th century stiletto type daggers were often used by (as he delicately put) 'soiled doves', and concealed in their clothing, a garter likely. It seems these relatively small but deadly daggers were well known also in England (many Sheffield made) and France. The influences in those countries were of course prevalent in the key metropolitan cities in America, but most prevalent in gold rush regions such as San Francisco and the Klondike as Mark mentions.

The biggest push for American makers seems to have been San Francisco (see Levines "Knife Makers of Old San Francisco " 1978).

The men preferred bowies and the unusual 'push daggers'.

These daggers discussed seem to be typically about 8.5" overall with 4" blade.
There seems to be some evidence of pitting, and the material of the hilt obviously not ivory but seems to be recalling the ivory and mother of pearl often used on the 19th c. examples. Really hard to say age of these, but surely well recognizes the form.

Thank you Jim for your useful comment, like always! These small daggers were used in Germany as well, I've seen some marked with Solingen.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you Jim for your useful comment, like always! These small daggers were used in Germany as well, I've seen some marked with Solingen.

Best regards,
Detlef

Thats understandable, both France and Germany were very 'pop culture' in 1880s onward with deep interest in the wild west etc. so 'Bowie's were very popular. As Norman noted, nearly every knife became a 'Bowie' .

While Sheffield was producing blades for American markets from early in the 19th century, by the latter 19th Solingen got in the act too.

[Sajen]

I recently purchased another dagger which seems to fall in the same category, handle seems to be from bakelite, scabbard is from brass with wooden inlays, nice blade. 25,7 cm long inside scabbard, 24,9 cm without, blade 13,6 cm.

[M ELEY]

Same style, indeed, but I think earlier. Perhaps last quarter 19th? Also a 'gamblers type. The hilt material might be gutta percha or horn? You are on a roll with these, my friend!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Same style, indeed, but I think earlier. Perhaps last quarter 19th? Also a 'gamblers type. The hilt material might be gutta percha or horn? You are on a roll with these, my friend!

Thank you for your comment! The possibility that the hilt material could be gutta percha was told to me by a friend already!

Best regards,
Detlef

[gp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thats understandable, both France and Germany were very 'pop culture' in 1880s onward with deep interest in the wild west etc. so 'Bowie's were very popular. As Norman noted, nearly every knife became a 'Bowie' .

While Sheffield was producing blades for American markets from early in the 19th century, by the latter 19th Solingen got in the act too.

think these daggers and specailly Detlef's new ones very interesting to say the least !