Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2025, 07:46 PM

Thanks Rick, that makes good sense, and I can understand how much sand is moved about over virtually centuries. If I understand correctly the biggest problem in navigating these waters through inlets and ever changing shoals is those kinds of dynamics.

What I wonder is, was there only one rather large 'ingot' found? and despite the negative result with the actual analysis revealing lead, what became of it? It is still historic.
What has become of Clifford? Online entries stop after 2016. If I am right he seems focused on the Santa Maria ?

Rick · 23rd January 2025, 10:56 PM

He's still searching for the Santa Maria, Jim. The powers that be in the world of shipwreck archeology have deemed that the first discovery was not the Santa Maria.

M ELEY · 25th January 2025, 09:27 AM

Opps. Don't know how I missed this great thread you started, Jim! I remember when this whole thing went down and so badly. Too bad, as I've read Barry's books on Expedition Whydah and his other dives on pirate ships (French privateers in the Caribbean). I don't think he personally tried to dupe anyone (it would have come out very quickly that the bar was NOT silver!). I think he just got caught up in the excitement of it all and got sloppy.

As far as why this lead ingot would have been so marked remains a mystery. As others have pointed out, lead was still a useful and semi-valuable commodity in the New World (lead was used to seal aqueducts and line the gutters of cathedrals in New Spain and Europe alike), but there is no reason it should bear the markings used on precious metals UNLESS it was made to deceive. Remember that when the Treasure Fleets were coming back from Mexico, there were many sailors that were trying to smuggle treasure back home or to steal some of the payload for themselves. That was the reason the Fleets had teams of soldiers aboard, not just to protect the ships from pirates, but from the crew!! There have been accounts (I bring this one up frequently as it is fascinating to me!!) of sailors bringing back a solid gold anchor painted black to try and get it past the bean-counters in Madrid!

Perhaps a silver bar got misappropriated and a lead one set in its place by some greedy sailors. The ruse would only have to work long enough for them to get back home. Or maybe the lead bar was handed over to marauding pirates to keep them pacified so they didn't put the crew of the captured vessel to the sword. Later on, realizing the trickery, someone angrily pitched it over the side. Who knows. In any case, I agree with most of the folks here that any item of such age and maritime history has a story to tell, a mystery to be solved and a value to collectors. Too bad we don't hear about this ingot after the debacle.

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2025, 03:38 PM

Thanks guys!! The Captain Kidd 'mysteries' have been effectively the prevalent fiber in the great 'pirate' and 'treasure' tapestries of cultural lore since the day the unfortunate captain was hanged in 1701. It was his alluding to his burying of treasure as leverage in his prosecution that created the very notion that became the linchpin to the treasure hunting/pirate myths and legends.

Capn, in our earliest days our common bond was our fascination with pirates, and of course the Whydah and Cliffords book was part of that foundation.
Naturally we always held that sacrosanct through the years, and in more recent times, the unfortunate truths which overshadowed the important core achievements disappointingly were revealed.

Rick, as you note the discovery of the Santa Maria wreck is heavily disputed and remains so. It seems much of the identification was based on broad assumptions and the discovery of a lombard cannon (which was said to be noted in contemporary accounts). That item apparently was 'stolen' (?) since its retrieval.

In reading more on Mr. Cliffords exploits, the 'discovery' of the Revolutionary War ship General Arnold in 1976 was given great fanfare. However it was later found that while the vessel foundered on a shoal, it was apparently not sunk and was later refloated and went back into service under another name, Amsterdam, as Benedict Arnold had been disgraced.

What Clifford apparently found was the remains of a barge which carried stone.

This sounds remarkably like the situation with the large ingot found at Isle of St. Marie in Madagascar, in which this was heralded as proof of the wreck of Kidd's 'Adventure Galley'.
Somehow the declaration of this unusually large ingot as silver ended up being found to be LEAD, and the wreckage not from a vessel but debris from dock construction.
Ironically this unfortunate result recalls the 'discovery' of the 'General Arnold' notably, with the mundane 'evidence' shown.

With the spurious 'silver' bar, it was apparently presented to Malagasy officials in Madagascar, so that must be where it remained. To date I have never found any mention of the 'Adventure Galley' being located, nor any rebuttal etc from Mr. Clifford over the last decade saying otherwise.

Capn Mark, I think your idea that this spuriously marked lead bar was likely pitched overboard is most likely. While lead ingots used as ballast were often offloaded into a harbor to discharge weight, obviously if this were the case there would have been many more in the location.
With these curious markings and the singular presence, clearly this bar was an attempt to disguise it as silver. There is no evidence that it would be linked to Captain Kidd as numbers of pirate vessels and activity were often present in this pirate hub.

The idea of disguising gold bars by painting them black is very "Maltese Falcon'

but curious in that distinctive shape and cryptic symbols used in assaying would make the item still obvious as a precious metal ingot..even if painted black. Still stranger things have happened, so possible. .......but an ANCHOR made of gold??? yikes! That would be incredible.

Lead ingots were indeed made intended as for use as ballast, the primary foundaries were in England, in fact many Dutch ships acquired these for such use. If I understand correctly the shape is somewhat different in these heavy ingots, and some resembled somewhat the Madagascar one (sort of a stylized fish shape). There were it seems some sort of identifying stamp marks used (as I did find a chart of some of them) but does not seem as controlled obviously as assayed metals.

I am still up to my ears in Captain Kidd related references along with maritime archaeology books mostly trying to somehow catalog all of the influence this unintended 'pirate' carried into the iconic legends of piracy.
Most notably of course was the 'treasure hunting' phenomenon that thoroughly influenced literature, and via that venue led to remarkable deceptive circumstances widely practiced. These became part of popular culture and iconic elements of the adventure so cherished by so many.

As often said, maybe the adventure is the true treasure

Rick · 27th January 2025, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As often said, maybe the adventure is the true treasure

Possibly for the treasure hunter/s Jim, maybe not so much for the Bank and the private backers/investors when the expedition fails to produce.

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2025, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Possibly for the treasure hunter/s Jim, maybe not so much for the Bank and the private backers/investors when the expedition fails to produce.

Oh yeah, how could I forget. Forgive my romantic faux pas.
Also forgot, caveat emptor. The bottom line I was referring to was the artifacts and discoveries found (hopefully)despite the lack of actual 'treasure'.

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2025, 03:29 PM

In a related ironic note with the notorious Captain Kidd at the helm, actually he was a well established business man in New York when he became interested in the privateer venture along with 'pirate' hunting. This was of course in effect a syndicated venture with key political figures and likely other investors who stood to realize notable profit from the potential prizes and captures.

It was when Kidd's voyages were not presenting such prizes that Kidd reluctantly and inadvertently became a 'pirate' himself.
While technically he thought he was acting within his legal parameters, and ultimately arrested and scapegoated by the governor to cover his complicity in the scheme, Kidd's use of alleged hidden treasure for leverage created the ever looming trope of 'pirate treasure' that has become iconic in popular culture.

One of the most noted examples of this has been the legendary Oak Island Money Pit, with its 'story' of presumed buried treasure, often purported to have been Kidd's in various versions. The details of this long heralded mystery are too complex to discuss here, however the most notable point is that this location has been the source for many syndicated treasure seeking efforts from the early 19th century. Obviously the vast amounts of capital invested have been profound and of course effectively fruitless. However, the relentless search continues and has provided seemingly endless subject matter for writers, film makers and adventure seekers ever since the early syndicates and other ventures to solve the mystery.

That was but one aspect of the 'Kidd treasure' syndrome, which influenced early treasure seekers (known as money diggers) which ironically became indirectly associated with the origins virtually of an entire religion, the Mormon Faith. The family of the founder Joseph Smith was at one time deeply involved in these activities which were prevalent in upper state New York in particular, where the family lived.
The point here is not to introduce controversy, but to note how entirely pervasive was Kidd's purported buried treasure in those times, and how it became almost a cultural phenomenon.

Early writers such as Washington Irving and James Fenimore Cooper who became literary icons brought the notions of Kidd's buried treasure into their scope. These later influenced Poe in his "The Gold Bug", which in turn became imbued into the quintessant pirate/buried treasure drama "Treasure Island" which immortalized Robert Louis Stevenson as the most important pirate author.

I wanted to illustrate in more detail what I meant regarding 'buried treasure' and adventure. In virtually all aspects of the centuries of searching for the jealously believed treasure of Captain Kidd, clearly nothing in the sense of precious materials has ever been found.....but the adventures that most of us from childhood forward have always treasured have remained sacrosanct in our memories.

And the search will continue.

22nd January 2025, 07:46 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	Thanks Rick, that makes good sense, and I can understand how much sand is moved about over virtually centuries. If I understand correctly the biggest problem in navigating these waters through inlets and ever changing shoals is those kinds of dynamics. What I wonder is, was there only one rather large 'ingot' found? and despite the negative result with the actual analysis revealing lead, what became of it? It is still historic. What has become of Clifford? Online entries stop after 2016. If I am right he seems focused on the Santa Maria ?

23rd January 2025, 10:56 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	He's still searching for the Santa Maria, Jim. The powers that be in the world of shipwreck archeology have deemed that the first discovery was not the Santa Maria.

25th January 2025, 09:27 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Opps. Don't know how I missed this great thread you started, Jim! I remember when this whole thing went down and so badly. Too bad, as I've read Barry's books on Expedition Whydah and his other dives on pirate ships (French privateers in the Caribbean). I don't think he personally tried to dupe anyone (it would have come out very quickly that the bar was NOT silver!). I think he just got caught up in the excitement of it all and got sloppy. As far as why this lead ingot would have been so marked remains a mystery. As others have pointed out, lead was still a useful and semi-valuable commodity in the New World (lead was used to seal aqueducts and line the gutters of cathedrals in New Spain and Europe alike), but there is no reason it should bear the markings used on precious metals UNLESS it was made to deceive. Remember that when the Treasure Fleets were coming back from Mexico, there were many sailors that were trying to smuggle treasure back home or to steal some of the payload for themselves. That was the reason the Fleets had teams of soldiers aboard, not just to protect the ships from pirates, but from the crew!! There have been accounts (I bring this one up frequently as it is fascinating to me!!) of sailors bringing back a solid gold anchor painted black to try and get it past the bean-counters in Madrid! Perhaps a silver bar got misappropriated and a lead one set in its place by some greedy sailors. The ruse would only have to work long enough for them to get back home. Or maybe the lead bar was handed over to marauding pirates to keep them pacified so they didn't put the crew of the captured vessel to the sword. Later on, realizing the trickery, someone angrily pitched it over the side. Who knows. In any case, I agree with most of the folks here that any item of such age and maritime history has a story to tell, a mystery to be solved and a value to collectors. Too bad we don't hear about this ingot after the debacle.

27th January 2025, 03:38 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	Thanks guys!! The Captain Kidd 'mysteries' have been effectively the prevalent fiber in the great 'pirate' and 'treasure' tapestries of cultural lore since the day the unfortunate captain was hanged in 1701. It was his alluding to his burying of treasure as leverage in his prosecution that created the very notion that became the linchpin to the treasure hunting/pirate myths and legends. Capn, in our earliest days our common bond was our fascination with pirates, and of course the Whydah and Cliffords book was part of that foundation. Naturally we always held that sacrosanct through the years, and in more recent times, the unfortunate truths which overshadowed the important core achievements disappointingly were revealed. Rick, as you note the discovery of the Santa Maria wreck is heavily disputed and remains so. It seems much of the identification was based on broad assumptions and the discovery of a lombard cannon (which was said to be noted in contemporary accounts). That item apparently was 'stolen' (?) since its retrieval. In reading more on Mr. Cliffords exploits, the 'discovery' of the Revolutionary War ship General Arnold in 1976 was given great fanfare. However it was later found that while the vessel foundered on a shoal, it was apparently not sunk and was later refloated and went back into service under another name, Amsterdam, as Benedict Arnold had been disgraced. What Clifford apparently found was the remains of a barge which carried stone. This sounds remarkably like the situation with the large ingot found at Isle of St. Marie in Madagascar, in which this was heralded as proof of the wreck of Kidd's 'Adventure Galley'. Somehow the declaration of this unusually large ingot as silver ended up being found to be LEAD, and the wreckage not from a vessel but debris from dock construction. Ironically this unfortunate result recalls the 'discovery' of the 'General Arnold' notably, with the mundane 'evidence' shown. With the spurious 'silver' bar, it was apparently presented to Malagasy officials in Madagascar, so that must be where it remained. To date I have never found any mention of the 'Adventure Galley' being located, nor any rebuttal etc from Mr. Clifford over the last decade saying otherwise. Capn Mark, I think your idea that this spuriously marked lead bar was likely pitched overboard is most likely. While lead ingots used as ballast were often offloaded into a harbor to discharge weight, obviously if this were the case there would have been many more in the location. With these curious markings and the singular presence, clearly this bar was an attempt to disguise it as silver. There is no evidence that it would be linked to Captain Kidd as numbers of pirate vessels and activity were often present in this pirate hub. The idea of disguising gold bars by painting them black is very "Maltese Falcon' but curious in that distinctive shape and cryptic symbols used in assaying would make the item still obvious as a precious metal ingot..even if painted black. Still stranger things have happened, so possible. .......but an ANCHOR made of gold??? yikes! That would be incredible. Lead ingots were indeed made intended as for use as ballast, the primary foundaries were in England, in fact many Dutch ships acquired these for such use. If I understand correctly the shape is somewhat different in these heavy ingots, and some resembled somewhat the Madagascar one (sort of a stylized fish shape). There were it seems some sort of identifying stamp marks used (as I did find a chart of some of them) but does not seem as controlled obviously as assayed metals. I am still up to my ears in Captain Kidd related references along with maritime archaeology books mostly trying to somehow catalog all of the influence this unintended 'pirate' carried into the iconic legends of piracy. Most notably of course was the 'treasure hunting' phenomenon that thoroughly influenced literature, and via that venue led to remarkable deceptive circumstances widely practiced. These became part of popular culture and iconic elements of the adventure so cherished by so many. As often said, maybe the adventure is the true treasure

28th January 2025, 03:29 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,188	In a related ironic note with the notorious Captain Kidd at the helm, actually he was a well established business man in New York when he became interested in the privateer venture along with 'pirate' hunting. This was of course in effect a syndicated venture with key political figures and likely other investors who stood to realize notable profit from the potential prizes and captures. It was when Kidd's voyages were not presenting such prizes that Kidd reluctantly and inadvertently became a 'pirate' himself. While technically he thought he was acting within his legal parameters, and ultimately arrested and scapegoated by the governor to cover his complicity in the scheme, Kidd's use of alleged hidden treasure for leverage created the ever looming trope of 'pirate treasure' that has become iconic in popular culture. One of the most noted examples of this has been the legendary Oak Island Money Pit, with its 'story' of presumed buried treasure, often purported to have been Kidd's in various versions. The details of this long heralded mystery are too complex to discuss here, however the most notable point is that this location has been the source for many syndicated treasure seeking efforts from the early 19th century. Obviously the vast amounts of capital invested have been profound and of course effectively fruitless. However, the relentless search continues and has provided seemingly endless subject matter for writers, film makers and adventure seekers ever since the early syndicates and other ventures to solve the mystery. That was but one aspect of the 'Kidd treasure' syndrome, which influenced early treasure seekers (known as money diggers) which ironically became indirectly associated with the origins virtually of an entire religion, the Mormon Faith. The family of the founder Joseph Smith was at one time deeply involved in these activities which were prevalent in upper state New York in particular, where the family lived. The point here is not to introduce controversy, but to note how entirely pervasive was Kidd's purported buried treasure in those times, and how it became almost a cultural phenomenon. Early writers such as Washington Irving and James Fenimore Cooper who became literary icons brought the notions of Kidd's buried treasure into their scope. These later influenced Poe in his "The Gold Bug", which in turn became imbued into the quintessant pirate/buried treasure drama "Treasure Island" which immortalized Robert Louis Stevenson as the most important pirate author. I wanted to illustrate in more detail what I meant regarding 'buried treasure' and adventure. In virtually all aspects of the centuries of searching for the jealously believed treasure of Captain Kidd, clearly nothing in the sense of precious materials has ever been found.....but the adventures that most of us from childhood forward have always treasured have remained sacrosanct in our memories. And the search will continue.