Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

[Rick]

Probably.
I find it amazing that Mr. Clifford neglected to bring a Silver test kit with him on his expedition.
If you find more information Jim, please keep us up to date. You could always try to contact him through the Whydah Museum website.

Have you read the book Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling yet?

[Jim McDougall]

Bob thank you for answering. The entire case for this being a silver bar and hyped into 'Captain Kidds treasure' seems to be 'on course for the unfortunately sensationalized career of Mr. Clifford.
Rick, I hoped you would come in on this, as for years you have called attention to the character of Clifford and your views were from close personal contact with him in your areas.

I think the use of disguised lead bars as valuable plunder must have been one of those unexplored areas of maritime trade and of course the piracy which becomes part of those contexts.

The nature of the 'ingot' from the Ile St. Marie harbor is first of all, a bit too large and heavy for a silver ingot and from what I can find on the apparently esoteric area of lead ballast bars, this unusual shape concurs somewhat.

The so called markings cut into this bar are 'in the manner' of the assay and control markings on Spanish silver bars, but of course, much cruder and interpretative. Absent are the conventional assay characters and of course the 'bite' marks (chunks for analysis by assayer).

It seems more than irresponsible to announce the locating of the Adventure Galley based on this single bar without proper testing. All I can think of is that the media was already on hand as Clifford had already been in this location seeking the wreck for some time, and they were ready to pounce. Still, Clifford should have cooled things down and followed protocols.
One of the most notable issues with him is the lack of proper archaeological staff on hand to ensure these kinds of protocols.

What I am trying to figure out is what became of this curiously disguised ingot after the year of hooplah in 2015. While clearly not 'treasure' it is still a valuable historic item as it was probably taken by one of the pirate groups who frequented there, and tossed as worthless. That it was found in an area of debris from dock structures rather than wreckage of a vessel seems to support that.

Thank you for the heads up on that book ! Ill check it out
I will see if I can find out more as you suggest, and as always invite any other input from those reading here, it has always been a team effort here.
It seems appropriate that pirate ships so often used ADVENTURE in thier names !!!
It is exactly what they have given us!

[Richard G]

Bering in mind we are talking about pirates, not overly renowned for their scruples, I am not the least surprised by the existence of any nefarious markings.
Best wishes
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Probably.
I find it amazing that Mr. Clifford neglected to bring a Silver test kit with him on his expedition.
If you find more information Jim, please keep us up to date. You could always try to contact him through the Whydah Museum website.

Have you read the book Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling yet?

Thanks for the heads up on this book Rick, despite all the stuff about the huge treasure on the Whydah ('found' in 1984) and the huge caches of silver and gold in chests in the museum, why is there no mention of hordes of treasure found in the wreck? Most of the materials seem to be in huge blocks of concretion, including numbers of loose coins which have been 'worked over the years but no mention anywhere so far of huge blocks of coins,

[Rick]

If I recall correctly, the word was that they had not gone deep enough and the the majority was further beneath the sand, which is believable considering the amount of wave action off the 'backside' shoreline that moves so much sand around every year. When I was younger, I surfed this coast for 30 years or so and can attest to the amount of sand that gets moved around during the winter months. The picture below was taken by me from the parking lot at Nauset Light beach which is about 75 feet above sea level after a Winter storm.
Then, when the weather is suitable for diving on the wreck we have a high White Shark count that probably rivals South Africa's these days, this causes the need for a few extra divers to watch out for them and work stops until they have departed the area. Divers in black wetsuits look very much like their favorite food, Seals.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Rick, that makes good sense, and I can understand how much sand is moved about over virtually centuries. If I understand correctly the biggest problem in navigating these waters through inlets and ever changing shoals is those kinds of dynamics.

What I wonder is, was there only one rather large 'ingot' found? and despite the negative result with the actual analysis revealing lead, what became of it? It is still historic.
What has become of Clifford? Online entries stop after 2016. If I am right he seems focused on the Santa Maria ?

[Rick]

He's still searching for the Santa Maria, Jim. The powers that be in the world of shipwreck archeology have deemed that the first discovery was not the Santa Maria.

[M ELEY]

Opps. Don't know how I missed this great thread you started, Jim! I remember when this whole thing went down and so badly. Too bad, as I've read Barry's books on Expedition Whydah and his other dives on pirate ships (French privateers in the Caribbean). I don't think he personally tried to dupe anyone (it would have come out very quickly that the bar was NOT silver!). I think he just got caught up in the excitement of it all and got sloppy.

As far as why this lead ingot would have been so marked remains a mystery. As others have pointed out, lead was still a useful and semi-valuable commodity in the New World (lead was used to seal aqueducts and line the gutters of cathedrals in New Spain and Europe alike), but there is no reason it should bear the markings used on precious metals UNLESS it was made to deceive. Remember that when the Treasure Fleets were coming back from Mexico, there were many sailors that were trying to smuggle treasure back home or to steal some of the payload for themselves. That was the reason the Fleets had teams of soldiers aboard, not just to protect the ships from pirates, but from the crew!! There have been accounts (I bring this one up frequently as it is fascinating to me!!) of sailors bringing back a solid gold anchor painted black to try and get it past the bean-counters in Madrid!

Perhaps a silver bar got misappropriated and a lead one set in its place by some greedy sailors. The ruse would only have to work long enough for them to get back home. Or maybe the lead bar was handed over to marauding pirates to keep them pacified so they didn't put the crew of the captured vessel to the sword. Later on, realizing the trickery, someone angrily pitched it over the side. Who knows. In any case, I agree with most of the folks here that any item of such age and maritime history has a story to tell, a mystery to be solved and a value to collectors. Too bad we don't hear about this ingot after the debacle.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks guys!! The Captain Kidd 'mysteries' have been effectively the prevalent fiber in the great 'pirate' and 'treasure' tapestries of cultural lore since the day the unfortunate captain was hanged in 1701. It was his alluding to his burying of treasure as leverage in his prosecution that created the very notion that became the linchpin to the treasure hunting/pirate myths and legends.

Capn, in our earliest days our common bond was our fascination with pirates, and of course the Whydah and Cliffords book was part of that foundation.
Naturally we always held that sacrosanct through the years, and in more recent times, the unfortunate truths which overshadowed the important core achievements disappointingly were revealed.

Rick, as you note the discovery of the Santa Maria wreck is heavily disputed and remains so. It seems much of the identification was based on broad assumptions and the discovery of a lombard cannon (which was said to be noted in contemporary accounts). That item apparently was 'stolen' (?) since its retrieval.

In reading more on Mr. Cliffords exploits, the 'discovery' of the Revolutionary War ship General Arnold in 1976 was given great fanfare. However it was later found that while the vessel foundered on a shoal, it was apparently not sunk and was later refloated and went back into service under another name, Amsterdam, as Benedict Arnold had been disgraced.

What Clifford apparently found was the remains of a barge which carried stone.

This sounds remarkably like the situation with the large ingot found at Isle of St. Marie in Madagascar, in which this was heralded as proof of the wreck of Kidd's 'Adventure Galley'.
Somehow the declaration of this unusually large ingot as silver ended up being found to be LEAD, and the wreckage not from a vessel but debris from dock construction.
Ironically this unfortunate result recalls the 'discovery' of the 'General Arnold' notably, with the mundane 'evidence' shown.

With the spurious 'silver' bar, it was apparently presented to Malagasy officials in Madagascar, so that must be where it remained. To date I have never found any mention of the 'Adventure Galley' being located, nor any rebuttal etc from Mr. Clifford over the last decade saying otherwise.


Capn Mark, I think your idea that this spuriously marked lead bar was likely pitched overboard is most likely. While lead ingots used as ballast were often offloaded into a harbor to discharge weight, obviously if this were the case there would have been many more in the location.
With these curious markings and the singular presence, clearly this bar was an attempt to disguise it as silver. There is no evidence that it would be linked to Captain Kidd as numbers of pirate vessels and activity were often present in this pirate hub.

The idea of disguising gold bars by painting them black is very "Maltese Falcon' but curious in that distinctive shape and cryptic symbols used in assaying would make the item still obvious as a precious metal ingot..even if painted black. Still stranger things have happened, so possible. .......but an ANCHOR made of gold??? yikes! That would be incredible.

Lead ingots were indeed made intended as for use as ballast, the primary foundaries were in England, in fact many Dutch ships acquired these for such use. If I understand correctly the shape is somewhat different in these heavy ingots, and some resembled somewhat the Madagascar one (sort of a stylized fish shape). There were it seems some sort of identifying stamp marks used (as I did find a chart of some of them) but does not seem as controlled obviously as assayed metals.


I am still up to my ears in Captain Kidd related references along with maritime archaeology books mostly trying to somehow catalog all of the influence this unintended 'pirate' carried into the iconic legends of piracy.
Most notably of course was the 'treasure hunting' phenomenon that thoroughly influenced literature, and via that venue led to remarkable deceptive circumstances widely practiced. These became part of popular culture and iconic elements of the adventure so cherished by so many.

As often said, maybe the adventure is the true treasure