Karabela european?

[serdar]

I acquired a karabela sword from collection of one old collector, he described this sword like “turkish karabela 17. Century”.

What i can see is an old blade, wery high quality blade, with very good toughnes, and high quality of steel, blade that se lot of usage. Blade is similar to the shamshir blade, but it is not a shamshir blade, profile is diferent, and diferently angled, allso it has a markings on a both sides, something that resembles a crowns? Maybe?
And a 5 star mark that forms a cross, that is obstructed by the langets of crossguard but i tried to capture on photo.
Those stars i have on two more swords that i know 100% are genova made and from 15 century.
And i saw similar stars on mostly genova made blades.

Handle is replacement, but an old replacement maybe 17/18 century.

If someone has seen this type of blade, or those markings, or has some valid info, please do share.
Thank you.

[awdaniec666]

I do not know about those markings but I can offer you my opinion on that sword.

The certainly old blade looks odd, I would rule out a classical Central European origin. I would re-evaluate a Persian origin.

The crossguard looks original at first glance. Similar can be found on 17th century Polish and Ottoman Karabelas alike.

The grip, while looking old, is not a typical Karabela hilt.
The star formed brass plates at the peens are not original, those edges would have caused wounds on the wielders hands. It may seem like not a problem when holding the sword calmly, but even the slightest edges irritate the skin after few minutes of movement - think about this like a stone in your shoe while walking.
In theory it is imaginable that the wood plates themselves are the product of someone in the 17/18th century who was barely familiar with Karabela hilts. But it´s very far from the known types. I say this as someone who opposes discarding artifacts solely by style.

In my opinion this likely a put together sword with an old blade and crossguard with a new (amateur made) grip.
Unlikely, but thinkable, it´s a very odd original sabre with useless later restored peens.
Termnologically I wouldn´t call it a Karabela although it certainly approaches that design.

[Jim McDougall]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27238

I totally agree, and linked this thread from 2021 where the comprehensive material reflects the foundation of the assessment.
It seems there has long been a certain cottage industry for creating traditional Polish swords for collectors and interested persons, as there is of course a notable shortage of genuine examples.
I have seen instances of 'karabelas' (with the familiar type hilts) mounted in newly made hilts, and on occasion using old guards and blades.

As noted this blade is a characteristic Persian shamshir blade, probably 18thc.
The karabela was of course much admired by the Poles, and became copied to the point often it is regarded by some literature as the 'national Polish sword'.
Old karabela it seems typically used saber blades rather than the thinner more parabolic shamshir blades.

As always, there must have been exceptions to individual cases.

[serdar]

As i wrote in my text folowing pictures, this definetly 100% isnt persian blade, i have extensive collection of persian blades, and i handled almost five hundred diferent persian blades, this is not persian.

It is 100% european, markings are important, im looking for someone that has seen this exact markings and have them maybe in archives.

Regardin a handle, handle isnt original, it is replacement, and a old replacement, used very much, about rivets, they are embeded into the wood, they definetly dont hurt your hand in any way, you cant even feel them.

It is very dificult to say something about item from pictures, i know that and that is a reason i wrote if someone knows something about markings, and not in the way “i think, it seems”, but definite knowledge.

In that text linked about karabelas there is a mountain of nonsence, and wrong things writen.
I allso saw a lot of “experts” write something off or on and they have no clue and no explenation backed with something material, that is a reason i asked if someone has seen identical markings.

Soo once more, please only if someone has seen -IDENTICAL- markings i would be grateful if he would share where and maybe data.
I suspect on something, but without data it dosent count.

Thanx.
-

[serdar]

Thank you anyway on your opinion.

[awdaniec666]

When you try to be polite and positive...

So here is no "I think" or "It seems":

This thing is ugly as hell and please stop insulting Polish sabres with this piece of experimental art.

I am gone here.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by serdar

Thank you anyway on your opinion.

I appreciate that. I also appreciate your opinion on the material I attached concerning the karabela. Clearly you have notable expertise on this topic, and I would encourage you to specifically share notes correcting the elements you consider nonsense, so the rest of us might learn. That is after all the objective here, and no matter how much we know, learning never stops.

Perhaps I might have more carefully worded my comments. The blade is of shamshir 'style' to my view, though Im sure saying that would be heresy to 'experts' on these blades. Obviously European, and at end of 18th century into early 19th the popularity of hussar cavalry units brought imitation of fashion and arms into European armies.

There were of course European makers who adopted various Eastern blade features and styles (i.e. the yelman) and some British cavalry swords are seen with these. In the Napoleonic campaigns, even yataghan 'style' blades have been noted on officers sabers.

I like your comment, 'markings are important' ! In the study of historic swords they are a key factor, which is why I have seriously studied this topic for many years, but I am NO expert by far.
One thing I have learned in the subject is that there are many complications, the numbers of spuriously applied marks etc. not withstanding.
There are many variations brought by many reasons, especially with families of makers who continued the profession through generations. Many marks had other meanings whether administrative or even talismanic.

So finding IDENTICAL markings can happen in many cases, but more often there are variations, sometimes as stamps wore out or were changed due to administrative situations.

Here is what I found as far as the 'stars' on the blade you show, and may not be identical, but a compelling suggestion to the possible European maker in this case Solingen late 18th c.

The two cavalry sabers are British using Solingen blades which have Eastern CHARACTERIZED features n them.

Again, hoping to be helpful, just as was awdanie666. Courtesy is also important. DEFINITE knowledge is VERY much a matter of opinion.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

When you try to be polite and positive...

So here is no "I think" or "It seems":

This thing is ugly as hell and please stop insulting Polish sabres with this piece of experimental art.

I am gone here.

Where for gods sake did i wrote that this karabela is polish sword or polish origin or mentioned poland in one sentance??

This sword definetly isnt made in poland.
And you surely know that karabela swords dont originate in poland.

This sword has two posible origins, italian or german, and im more leaned against german origin. And the blade is made long before polish people heard word karabela.

I could go on about quality of polish swords in year 1500-1650 and how much superior steel quality of this sword is, but i wont, becouse as i can see, this forum unfortunatly plumeted to very low grounds in the last 10-15 years.

I just hope when you are soo atorney like for polish swords, that you know that in europe polish people are among latest that started using karabela swords, or caracteristic bird handle swords, and that there were many other countries that had identical if not superior warriors and sword wielders, let alone sword quality and craftmaship.

In my colection i have documented karabela, yes karabela, with classic birds head handle, with provenance, and list of belonged to from end of 15 century from one noble balkan family to another, and it is neither ottoman neither polish, and you probably would list it as polish, black horn handle, three rivets, blade marked with fullers etc.

It is a time people stop marrying words karabela and poland.

I wrote that im interested in markings, if someone have seen identical and i mean realy identical markings, not similar or anything, and what you do, instead of reading and understandin what i wrote, you gave your opinion on persian origin ignoring my words that it is definetly not persian.

I know that very few people held in their hands old european blades from 14,15 century, but persians arent first to develop that form or blade shape,especialy more curved ones.

Many people wrote books on antique wepons, and problem is that anyone can write a book, second problem is when people have no practical experience but hold clenched to a book someone write, no mater how famous or what.

Anyhow, if someone have pictures or data with exact same markings five stars in a cross formation in crown field, it would be great.

P.s.
One more time, please markings only, if someone knows or have data about same markings as seen on pictures, im not into childish writeoffs or unnecesary this is, or this isnt kind of d. measurements.
Thank you.
If

[Victrix]

You may be interested in not too dissimilar marks on a sword in this post. There are decorative lines, stars, and moon (?) marks:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Storta

P.S. Gentle reminder to all forum members to remain civil. We are all sharing information with one another in the common pursuit of knowledge.

[Jim McDougall]

In rereading awdaniec666 thread (previously linked) I wanted to note that his resounding work toward a better understanding of the KARABELA sabers which were well known developing in 17th century Poland is brilliantly written, researched and thought out.

I would also point out that he responsibly posted a disclaimer, as most reliable authors do, that much of what is written is of course subject to revision as research is always evolving. In fact most authors encourage further research and rebuttal. noting their own responsibly for any errors.

Discussion is not meant to be a narrow, one sided interaction, but an open discourse where examples, material, ideas are shared toward the subject at hand. In most research I have experienced, important clues have surfaced from often unrelated or barely similar examples.

It is most unfortunate when efforts of anyone participating in a discussion are discounted abrasively as seen here. In the derisive comment about the alleged downturn of our forum in the 'past 10-15 years', I am curious on that assessment from someone who has only participated in the last 2 years.

Getting to the subject matter here, I would point out that the hilt here only superficially resembles a karabela hilt, so as not 'exact' it is not a karabela
There can be no variation, it must be exact to be properly classified. It is obviously an interpretation made to resemble these hilts. The rosettes are notably crude.

The comments on the blade are most interesting, as this EUROPEAN blade stated most likely German vs. Italian (North Italy and South Germany were obviously closely paralleled) and PREDATES the 'karabela'in Poland (17th c.).
So may I ask to see images, examples, references (worthy only) which show German 'shamshir TYPE' blades of 16th century, or Italian versions which might also contend.

The term KARABELA has been 'married' into the lexicon of the Polish people for a very long time (as well explained in the thread noted) and in MANY references on arms referred to as the 'national' sword as it is so highly regarded in its traditional form. The Polish people are quite proud of these.

Pictured is a karabela with the 'exact' hilt shape.
Looking forward to seeing blades like the one on the sword in original post of pre 17th c. German origin.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Victrix

You may be interested in not too dissimilar marks on a sword in this post. There are decorative lines, stars, and moon (?) marks:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Storta

P.S. Gentle reminder to all forum members to remain civil. We are all sharing information with one another in the common pursuit of knowledge.

Victrix thank you very much on reminding me on that sword!
I was looking at it some time ago, i have dusack with very nice genova blade, also got stars.
P.s.I also have a yatagan with old genova blade reshaped in yatagan form.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In rereading awdaniec666 thread (previously linked) I wanted to note that his resounding work toward a better understanding of the KARABELA sabers which were well known developing in 17th century Poland is brilliantly written, researched and thought out.

I would also point out that he responsibly posted a disclaimer, as most reliable authors do, that much of what is written is of course subject to revision as research is always evolving. In fact most authors encourage further research and rebuttal. noting their own responsibly for any errors.

Discussion is not meant to be a narrow, one sided interaction, but an open discourse where examples, material, ideas are shared toward the subject at hand. In most research I have experienced, important clues have surfaced from often unrelated or barely similar examples.

It is most unfortunate when efforts of anyone participating in a discussion are discounted abrasively as seen here. In the derisive comment about the alleged downturn of our forum in the 'past 10-15 years', I am curious on that assessment from someone who has only participated in the last 2 years.

Getting to the subject matter here, I would point out that the hilt here only superficially resembles a karabela hilt, so as not 'exact' it is not a karabela
There can be no variation, it must be exact to be properly classified. It is obviously an interpretation made to resemble these hilts. The rosettes are notably crude.

The comments on the blade are most interesting, as this EUROPEAN blade stated most likely German vs. Italian (North Italy and South Germany were obviously closely paralleled) and PREDATES the 'karabela'in Poland (17th c.).
So may I ask to see images, examples, references (worthy only) which show German 'shamshir TYPE' blades of 16th century, or Italian versions which might also contend.

The term KARABELA has been 'married' into the lexicon of the Polish people for a very long time (as well explained in the thread noted) and in MANY references on arms referred to as the 'national' sword as it is so highly regarded in its traditional form. The Polish people are quite proud of these.

Pictured is a karabela with the 'exact' hilt shape.
Looking forward to seeing blades like the one on the sword in original post of pre 17th c. German origin.

First of, i writen wrongly, italian not german.

Second, it is obvious awdaniec666 and you dodnt read or didnt understand what i writen, i was asking about marks and not about your opinions on origin of a blade, mark is clearly visoble but if you say that you can determine quality, origin or anything about some sword from only pictures, then sir you are a fraud.

Second thing is about my involvement on forum, i was reading all the posts for years, one do not need to write and discuc to know the quality of a forum, or to see a forum droped in quality, and for you to write that to me shows your competention and quality.

Im finished with d. Measurements with you and awdani666, you both showed enough of your “quality and persona”.

That saber i posted is a karabela, has a 250-300 hundred years old birds head handle on it and i think around 550-500 years old italian blade.
And if you by looking at pictures of it want to call it a shamshir, a yatagan or a rapier, please do, idgf for it.
But it is a karabela.

[serdar]

PLEASE
If some one has seen identical mark, and has a data on it, do write.

Please d. measurers like awdani666 and jim mcdougall whose writing and biases i readed long ago, dont post b.s. Without any couse.

If you cant read what is writen and respect that, then it is better for administrator to delete whole thing becouse this is just stupid, for me to post a pictures and clearly ask about markings 100% stating and i can guarantee that, that it isnt persian blade, and then those two diletants repedeatly coming and proclaiming it persian and frankenstein, and how can someone say that forum didnt plumeted!!??

I mean guys realy? Do you read what is writen and do you understand it? I know english is not my mother language, but im not that bad that is unreadable.

[serdar]

I cant write about me and my credentials, it would take lots of time and efort, but they exist, but if anyone of you awdani or jim are ready to take bet on proving that this is persian and not karabela, im ready to host you and put one milion on bet, you put 10% of that and its ok, or dont write noncenses.

No one with healthy mind cant say something about sword by picture only, not even some old colectors from my country.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by serdar

I cant write about me and my credentials, it would take lots of time and efort, but they exist, but if anyone of you awdani or jim are ready to take bet on proving that this is persian and not karabela, im ready to host you and put one milion on bet, you put 10% of that and its ok, or dont write noncenses.

No one with healthy mind cant say something about sword by picture only, not even some old colectors from my country.

Possibly you might read more thoroughly as well, and obviously no conclusions can be asserted without hands on examination. I am so glad that you finally decided to write after lurking all these years, and denying us all your expertise, and I dont mean that sarcsastically. What is unfortunate is your notably contentious tone, which is unnecessary, obviously English is not your native language, but as you note, you do quite well.

I have NEVER said this blade was Persian, but in SHAMSHIR style. it seems apparent, even to a novice such as I, that it is not Persian, but seems intended to imitate them. This I would note is my opinion only, not intended as b/s.

Like the hilt, it is karabela like, but made in imitation, and as you note, hard to say how old from photos. In all you posts you note examples that are less than genuine, so you seem to have a viable awareness of such characteristics. It can be called karabela, why not? It is similar, though not EXACT.

Your very personal insults are unfortunate and unnecessary. I do not feel that posting information and researched material in order to augment a discussion is biased or b/s. For someone with your credentials and lauded background, those comments seem a bit disappointing.
While we try to post 'opinions' in hopes of constructive discussion, I do not believe we have been 'assertive' and these are posted openly and expecting other views.

What is nonsense is this waste of time with personality issues. As I have noted I would welcome your posting of earlier (than 17th century) ITALIAN (not German as you originally said) blades like this of SHAMSHIR TYPE.
It would not be surprising to see a karabela TYPE hilt produced in Italian regions as Ottoman and Persian weapons were highly prized.

In Arabia as well, I have seen many sabers with hilts, guards produced in such forms and Persian blades were as noted highly prized.

Hopefully we can get this back on better course.

BTW: a dilettante is defined as a person who cultivates an area of interest but without real commitment or knowledge. While I may not have 'credentials' I have committed to the study of arms history most of my life and with a passion to learn. While I have gained a good deal of knowledge which is of course a work in progress. Even with well over 50 years of study I find far more questions with every answer I discover. Just FYI.

PS I will continue seeking the marking you show on this blade. While I have most of the compendiums, the records of markings are comprehensive, but barely scratch the surface of the vast numbers that were used. The notion that every maker had a distinct marking which was recorded by a guild is hardly the case overall. The spurious use of markings was rampant and these kinds of uses resulted in unusual variations and incongruent pairings of marks as originally intended.

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=serdar;295201]I acquired a karabela sword from collection of one old collector, he described this sword like “turkish karabela 17. Century”.

What i can see is an old blade, wery high quality blade, with very good toughnes, and high quality of steel, blade that se lot of usage. Blade is similar to the shamshir blade, but it is not a shamshir blade, profile is diferent, and diferently angled, allso it has a markings on a both sides, something that resembles a crowns? Maybe?
And a 5 star mark that forms a cross, that is obstructed by the langets of crossguard but i tried to capture on photo.
Those stars i have on two more swords that i know 100% are genova made and from 15 century.
And i saw similar stars on mostly genova made blades.

Handle is replacement, but an old replacement maybe 17/18 century.













I thought perhaps responding directly to this original post best, as clearly discussion is not possible and what is sought is a direct answer, no less.

As far as can be found thus far, no IDENTICAL cross configuration of these stars can compare. It is noted that these star stamps are seen on various north Italian blades. As far as known, like many such markings on blades, these are not directly associated to certain makers, though on occasions they do occur with actual makers punzone.
There are of course speculations but it is dangerous to cite them at the risk of academic ire.

However I have found support for the fact that this MAY well be a SHAMSHIR LIKE blade of early 16th century from Italy. ...
A scimitar dated 1618 (Wallace Coll. , Mann, 1962, A713, p.363) shown from Italy.

In Mann (op.cit.p.361) it is noted:
:...this scimitar is an example of mingling of European and Asiatic styles in Venice".

It may be presumed that this practice likely existed prior to this and did not suddenly occur one day in 1618. Thus, it is quite possible that this shamshir like blade might be this early, made in Italy, thus marked using the same type stars in a locally peculiar configuration.......temptingly in accord with the Jerusalem cross.

The entire 'karabela' attribution is irrelevant and the present hilt on the blade appears much later addition, and cannot be properly or forensically classified from photos and physical handling. Thus, this hilt resembling karabela types does not necessarily bear on the identification of the blade (nor for that matter the guard).

I hope these comments might be perceived as objectively presented and my opinions are in accord.