Karabela european?

[serdar]

Thank you anyway on your opinion.

[awdaniec666]

When you try to be polite and positive...

So here is no "I think" or "It seems":

This thing is ugly as hell and please stop insulting Polish sabres with this piece of experimental art.

I am gone here.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

When you try to be polite and positive...

So here is no "I think" or "It seems":

This thing is ugly as hell and please stop insulting Polish sabres with this piece of experimental art.

I am gone here.

Where for gods sake did i wrote that this karabela is polish sword or polish origin or mentioned poland in one sentance??

This sword definetly isnt made in poland.
And you surely know that karabela swords dont originate in poland.

This sword has two posible origins, italian or german, and im more leaned against german origin. And the blade is made long before polish people heard word karabela.

I could go on about quality of polish swords in year 1500-1650 and how much superior steel quality of this sword is, but i wont, becouse as i can see, this forum unfortunatly plumeted to very low grounds in the last 10-15 years.

I just hope when you are soo atorney like for polish swords, that you know that in europe polish people are among latest that started using karabela swords, or caracteristic bird handle swords, and that there were many other countries that had identical if not superior warriors and sword wielders, let alone sword quality and craftmaship.

In my colection i have documented karabela, yes karabela, with classic birds head handle, with provenance, and list of belonged to from end of 15 century from one noble balkan family to another, and it is neither ottoman neither polish, and you probably would list it as polish, black horn handle, three rivets, blade marked with fullers etc.

It is a time people stop marrying words karabela and poland.

I wrote that im interested in markings, if someone have seen identical and i mean realy identical markings, not similar or anything, and what you do, instead of reading and understandin what i wrote, you gave your opinion on persian origin ignoring my words that it is definetly not persian.

I know that very few people held in their hands old european blades from 14,15 century, but persians arent first to develop that form or blade shape,especialy more curved ones.

Many people wrote books on antique wepons, and problem is that anyone can write a book, second problem is when people have no practical experience but hold clenched to a book someone write, no mater how famous or what.

Anyhow, if someone have pictures or data with exact same markings five stars in a cross formation in crown field, it would be great.

P.s.
One more time, please markings only, if someone knows or have data about same markings as seen on pictures, im not into childish writeoffs or unnecesary this is, or this isnt kind of d. measurements.
Thank you.
If

[Victrix]

You may be interested in not too dissimilar marks on a sword in this post. There are decorative lines, stars, and moon (?) marks:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Storta

P.S. Gentle reminder to all forum members to remain civil. We are all sharing information with one another in the common pursuit of knowledge.

[Jim McDougall]

In rereading awdaniec666 thread (previously linked) I wanted to note that his resounding work toward a better understanding of the KARABELA sabers which were well known developing in 17th century Poland is brilliantly written, researched and thought out.

I would also point out that he responsibly posted a disclaimer, as most reliable authors do, that much of what is written is of course subject to revision as research is always evolving. In fact most authors encourage further research and rebuttal. noting their own responsibly for any errors.

Discussion is not meant to be a narrow, one sided interaction, but an open discourse where examples, material, ideas are shared toward the subject at hand. In most research I have experienced, important clues have surfaced from often unrelated or barely similar examples.

It is most unfortunate when efforts of anyone participating in a discussion are discounted abrasively as seen here. In the derisive comment about the alleged downturn of our forum in the 'past 10-15 years', I am curious on that assessment from someone who has only participated in the last 2 years.

Getting to the subject matter here, I would point out that the hilt here only superficially resembles a karabela hilt, so as not 'exact' it is not a karabela
There can be no variation, it must be exact to be properly classified. It is obviously an interpretation made to resemble these hilts. The rosettes are notably crude.

The comments on the blade are most interesting, as this EUROPEAN blade stated most likely German vs. Italian (North Italy and South Germany were obviously closely paralleled) and PREDATES the 'karabela'in Poland (17th c.).
So may I ask to see images, examples, references (worthy only) which show German 'shamshir TYPE' blades of 16th century, or Italian versions which might also contend.

The term KARABELA has been 'married' into the lexicon of the Polish people for a very long time (as well explained in the thread noted) and in MANY references on arms referred to as the 'national' sword as it is so highly regarded in its traditional form. The Polish people are quite proud of these.

Pictured is a karabela with the 'exact' hilt shape.
Looking forward to seeing blades like the one on the sword in original post of pre 17th c. German origin.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In rereading awdaniec666 thread (previously linked) I wanted to note that his resounding work toward a better understanding of the KARABELA sabers which were well known developing in 17th century Poland is brilliantly written, researched and thought out.

I would also point out that he responsibly posted a disclaimer, as most reliable authors do, that much of what is written is of course subject to revision as research is always evolving. In fact most authors encourage further research and rebuttal. noting their own responsibly for any errors.

Discussion is not meant to be a narrow, one sided interaction, but an open discourse where examples, material, ideas are shared toward the subject at hand. In most research I have experienced, important clues have surfaced from often unrelated or barely similar examples.

It is most unfortunate when efforts of anyone participating in a discussion are discounted abrasively as seen here. In the derisive comment about the alleged downturn of our forum in the 'past 10-15 years', I am curious on that assessment from someone who has only participated in the last 2 years.

Getting to the subject matter here, I would point out that the hilt here only superficially resembles a karabela hilt, so as not 'exact' it is not a karabela
There can be no variation, it must be exact to be properly classified. It is obviously an interpretation made to resemble these hilts. The rosettes are notably crude.

The comments on the blade are most interesting, as this EUROPEAN blade stated most likely German vs. Italian (North Italy and South Germany were obviously closely paralleled) and PREDATES the 'karabela'in Poland (17th c.).
So may I ask to see images, examples, references (worthy only) which show German 'shamshir TYPE' blades of 16th century, or Italian versions which might also contend.

The term KARABELA has been 'married' into the lexicon of the Polish people for a very long time (as well explained in the thread noted) and in MANY references on arms referred to as the 'national' sword as it is so highly regarded in its traditional form. The Polish people are quite proud of these.

Pictured is a karabela with the 'exact' hilt shape.
Looking forward to seeing blades like the one on the sword in original post of pre 17th c. German origin.

First of, i writen wrongly, italian not german.

Second, it is obvious awdaniec666 and you dodnt read or didnt understand what i writen, i was asking about marks and not about your opinions on origin of a blade, mark is clearly visoble but if you say that you can determine quality, origin or anything about some sword from only pictures, then sir you are a fraud.

Second thing is about my involvement on forum, i was reading all the posts for years, one do not need to write and discuc to know the quality of a forum, or to see a forum droped in quality, and for you to write that to me shows your competention and quality.

Im finished with d. Measurements with you and awdani666, you both showed enough of your “quality and persona”.

That saber i posted is a karabela, has a 250-300 hundred years old birds head handle on it and i think around 550-500 years old italian blade.
And if you by looking at pictures of it want to call it a shamshir, a yatagan or a rapier, please do, idgf for it.
But it is a karabela.

[serdar]

PLEASE
If some one has seen identical mark, and has a data on it, do write.

Please d. measurers like awdani666 and jim mcdougall whose writing and biases i readed long ago, dont post b.s. Without any couse.

If you cant read what is writen and respect that, then it is better for administrator to delete whole thing becouse this is just stupid, for me to post a pictures and clearly ask about markings 100% stating and i can guarantee that, that it isnt persian blade, and then those two diletants repedeatly coming and proclaiming it persian and frankenstein, and how can someone say that forum didnt plumeted!!??

I mean guys realy? Do you read what is writen and do you understand it? I know english is not my mother language, but im not that bad that is unreadable.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Victrix

You may be interested in not too dissimilar marks on a sword in this post. There are decorative lines, stars, and moon (?) marks:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Storta

P.S. Gentle reminder to all forum members to remain civil. We are all sharing information with one another in the common pursuit of knowledge.

Victrix thank you very much on reminding me on that sword!
I was looking at it some time ago, i have dusack with very nice genova blade, also got stars.
P.s.I also have a yatagan with old genova blade reshaped in yatagan form.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by serdar

Thank you anyway on your opinion.

I appreciate that. I also appreciate your opinion on the material I attached concerning the karabela. Clearly you have notable expertise on this topic, and I would encourage you to specifically share notes correcting the elements you consider nonsense, so the rest of us might learn. That is after all the objective here, and no matter how much we know, learning never stops.

Perhaps I might have more carefully worded my comments. The blade is of shamshir 'style' to my view, though Im sure saying that would be heresy to 'experts' on these blades. Obviously European, and at end of 18th century into early 19th the popularity of hussar cavalry units brought imitation of fashion and arms into European armies.

There were of course European makers who adopted various Eastern blade features and styles (i.e. the yelman) and some British cavalry swords are seen with these. In the Napoleonic campaigns, even yataghan 'style' blades have been noted on officers sabers.

I like your comment, 'markings are important' ! In the study of historic swords they are a key factor, which is why I have seriously studied this topic for many years, but I am NO expert by far.
One thing I have learned in the subject is that there are many complications, the numbers of spuriously applied marks etc. not withstanding.
There are many variations brought by many reasons, especially with families of makers who continued the profession through generations. Many marks had other meanings whether administrative or even talismanic.

So finding IDENTICAL markings can happen in many cases, but more often there are variations, sometimes as stamps wore out or were changed due to administrative situations.

Here is what I found as far as the 'stars' on the blade you show, and may not be identical, but a compelling suggestion to the possible European maker in this case Solingen late 18th c.

The two cavalry sabers are British using Solingen blades which have Eastern CHARACTERIZED features n them.

Again, hoping to be helpful, just as was awdanie666. Courtesy is also important. DEFINITE knowledge is VERY much a matter of opinion.