Karabela european?

[awdaniec666]

I do not know about those markings but I can offer you my opinion on that sword.

The certainly old blade looks odd, I would rule out a classical Central European origin. I would re-evaluate a Persian origin.

The crossguard looks original at first glance. Similar can be found on 17th century Polish and Ottoman Karabelas alike.

The grip, while looking old, is not a typical Karabela hilt.
The star formed brass plates at the peens are not original, those edges would have caused wounds on the wielders hands. It may seem like not a problem when holding the sword calmly, but even the slightest edges irritate the skin after few minutes of movement - think about this like a stone in your shoe while walking.
In theory it is imaginable that the wood plates themselves are the product of someone in the 17/18th century who was barely familiar with Karabela hilts. But it´s very far from the known types. I say this as someone who opposes discarding artifacts solely by style.

In my opinion this likely a put together sword with an old blade and crossguard with a new (amateur made) grip.
Unlikely, but thinkable, it´s a very odd original sabre with useless later restored peens.
Termnologically I wouldn´t call it a Karabela although it certainly approaches that design.

[Jim McDougall]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27238

I totally agree, and linked this thread from 2021 where the comprehensive material reflects the foundation of the assessment.
It seems there has long been a certain cottage industry for creating traditional Polish swords for collectors and interested persons, as there is of course a notable shortage of genuine examples.
I have seen instances of 'karabelas' (with the familiar type hilts) mounted in newly made hilts, and on occasion using old guards and blades.

As noted this blade is a characteristic Persian shamshir blade, probably 18thc.
The karabela was of course much admired by the Poles, and became copied to the point often it is regarded by some literature as the 'national Polish sword'.
Old karabela it seems typically used saber blades rather than the thinner more parabolic shamshir blades.

As always, there must have been exceptions to individual cases.

[serdar]

As i wrote in my text folowing pictures, this definetly 100% isnt persian blade, i have extensive collection of persian blades, and i handled almost five hundred diferent persian blades, this is not persian.

It is 100% european, markings are important, im looking for someone that has seen this exact markings and have them maybe in archives.

Regardin a handle, handle isnt original, it is replacement, and a old replacement, used very much, about rivets, they are embeded into the wood, they definetly dont hurt your hand in any way, you cant even feel them.

It is very dificult to say something about item from pictures, i know that and that is a reason i wrote if someone knows something about markings, and not in the way “i think, it seems”, but definite knowledge.

In that text linked about karabelas there is a mountain of nonsence, and wrong things writen.
I allso saw a lot of “experts” write something off or on and they have no clue and no explenation backed with something material, that is a reason i asked if someone has seen identical markings.

Soo once more, please only if someone has seen -IDENTICAL- markings i would be grateful if he would share where and maybe data.
I suspect on something, but without data it dosent count.

Thanx.
-

[serdar]

Thank you anyway on your opinion.

[awdaniec666]

When you try to be polite and positive...

So here is no "I think" or "It seems":

This thing is ugly as hell and please stop insulting Polish sabres with this piece of experimental art.

I am gone here.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

When you try to be polite and positive...

So here is no "I think" or "It seems":

This thing is ugly as hell and please stop insulting Polish sabres with this piece of experimental art.

I am gone here.

Where for gods sake did i wrote that this karabela is polish sword or polish origin or mentioned poland in one sentance??

This sword definetly isnt made in poland.
And you surely know that karabela swords dont originate in poland.

This sword has two posible origins, italian or german, and im more leaned against german origin. And the blade is made long before polish people heard word karabela.

I could go on about quality of polish swords in year 1500-1650 and how much superior steel quality of this sword is, but i wont, becouse as i can see, this forum unfortunatly plumeted to very low grounds in the last 10-15 years.

I just hope when you are soo atorney like for polish swords, that you know that in europe polish people are among latest that started using karabela swords, or caracteristic bird handle swords, and that there were many other countries that had identical if not superior warriors and sword wielders, let alone sword quality and craftmaship.

In my colection i have documented karabela, yes karabela, with classic birds head handle, with provenance, and list of belonged to from end of 15 century from one noble balkan family to another, and it is neither ottoman neither polish, and you probably would list it as polish, black horn handle, three rivets, blade marked with fullers etc.

It is a time people stop marrying words karabela and poland.

I wrote that im interested in markings, if someone have seen identical and i mean realy identical markings, not similar or anything, and what you do, instead of reading and understandin what i wrote, you gave your opinion on persian origin ignoring my words that it is definetly not persian.

I know that very few people held in their hands old european blades from 14,15 century, but persians arent first to develop that form or blade shape,especialy more curved ones.

Many people wrote books on antique wepons, and problem is that anyone can write a book, second problem is when people have no practical experience but hold clenched to a book someone write, no mater how famous or what.

Anyhow, if someone have pictures or data with exact same markings five stars in a cross formation in crown field, it would be great.

P.s.
One more time, please markings only, if someone knows or have data about same markings as seen on pictures, im not into childish writeoffs or unnecesary this is, or this isnt kind of d. measurements.
Thank you.
If

[Victrix]

You may be interested in not too dissimilar marks on a sword in this post. There are decorative lines, stars, and moon (?) marks:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Storta

P.S. Gentle reminder to all forum members to remain civil. We are all sharing information with one another in the common pursuit of knowledge.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by serdar

Thank you anyway on your opinion.

I appreciate that. I also appreciate your opinion on the material I attached concerning the karabela. Clearly you have notable expertise on this topic, and I would encourage you to specifically share notes correcting the elements you consider nonsense, so the rest of us might learn. That is after all the objective here, and no matter how much we know, learning never stops.

Perhaps I might have more carefully worded my comments. The blade is of shamshir 'style' to my view, though Im sure saying that would be heresy to 'experts' on these blades. Obviously European, and at end of 18th century into early 19th the popularity of hussar cavalry units brought imitation of fashion and arms into European armies.

There were of course European makers who adopted various Eastern blade features and styles (i.e. the yelman) and some British cavalry swords are seen with these. In the Napoleonic campaigns, even yataghan 'style' blades have been noted on officers sabers.

I like your comment, 'markings are important' ! In the study of historic swords they are a key factor, which is why I have seriously studied this topic for many years, but I am NO expert by far.
One thing I have learned in the subject is that there are many complications, the numbers of spuriously applied marks etc. not withstanding.
There are many variations brought by many reasons, especially with families of makers who continued the profession through generations. Many marks had other meanings whether administrative or even talismanic.

So finding IDENTICAL markings can happen in many cases, but more often there are variations, sometimes as stamps wore out or were changed due to administrative situations.

Here is what I found as far as the 'stars' on the blade you show, and may not be identical, but a compelling suggestion to the possible European maker in this case Solingen late 18th c.

The two cavalry sabers are British using Solingen blades which have Eastern CHARACTERIZED features n them.

Again, hoping to be helpful, just as was awdanie666. Courtesy is also important. DEFINITE knowledge is VERY much a matter of opinion.