Very old Visayan kris

[kai]

Hello Ed,

I've always enjoyed lurking on kris posts, but I have a technical question. I like the design and integration of the gangya.(cross guard)? and the blade. Likely some cultural reason. But mechanically why is the gangya made separate from the blade and apparently fastened to the blade by those "clips"? Is this a relatively weak connection? The gangya is thicker and wider of the blade, but would seem no great technical chore to forge as a single piece.

There are kris/keris that have the gangya/gonjo forged integrally with the blade; the default is them being made as separate pieces though. This tradition is based on underlying symbolism/meaning going back for several centuries. Details would need an in-depth discussion since the interpretation underwent changes within the originating culture(s) as well as shifts till reaching (and possibly within) the Moro cultural sphere.

The clips/clamps are mainly to securing the gangya/katik to the blade (as well as helping to attach the hilt to the blade). The latter is a functional aspect; the former has more like a metaphysical reason.

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

An important question for me is how did a nobility Moro kris end up in Waray dress? I have chatted with another Forum member about this sword and how it might have ended up in the hands of a resident of the eastern Visayas.

There are several ways in which Moro swords might be found outside the original culture.

• As a gift
• Through trade or intermarriage
• As a result of armed conflict

We came to the conclusion that should a Waray have acquired this sword through means other than conflict (i.e., through trade, intermarriage, or as a gift) it would have remained in Moro dress. To re-dress a distinguished Moro sword with a local hilt and scabbard would be considered an "abomination" by the Moro, and definitely an unfriendly and insulting thing to do. Therefore, we might reasonably conclude in this case that the sword was taken from a fallen Moro as a result of armed conflict.

The quality and mysticism of the sword requires that it was owned by royalty or perhaps a panglima. This, in turn, suggests a significant battle between Moros and Visayans. Several such battles occurred in the Visayas between the Moros and Spanish forces during what has been termed the third phase of the Spanish-Moro War (see here). Between 1599 and 1634 several large scale punitive raids were conducted by the Moros against the Spanish-held areas in the Visayas:

• 1599: Datu Salikula and Datu Sirungan the chiefs of Maguindanao and Buayan, respectively, launched a joint force attacking a major Spanish base in the central Visayas (3,000 warriors with 50 paraw).
• 1602: Commanded by Datu Buisan, the successor of Datu Salikula, and Datu Sirungan (145 paraw – 50 vessels manned by the Ternatans, Sangil and Tagolanda; 60 by the Maguindanao; and 35 by the Yakans of Basilan)
• 1603: Rajah Buisan together with his allies from Sangil and Ternate led another invasion of Central Visayas. They invaded Dulag, Leyte a place where Rajah Buisan delivered his historic speech calling the Leyte datus to fight the Spaniards.
• 1605: Spanish-Moro Treaty was signed
• 1608: Following Spanish raids on Ternate, the Maguindanao chief construed this action a violation of the 1603 Treaty, and ordered the resumption of military raids of Spanish garrisons in the Central Visayas.
• 1608: A new Spanish-Moro Treaty was signed
• 1627: Rajah Bungsu the Sultan of Sulu led 2,000 warriors, and attacked the Spanish base and ship yard in Camarines Sur and Central Visayas. The attack was triggered by maltreatment suffered by a Sulu envoy, Datu Ache, returning home from Manila. His ships were intercepted by the Spaniards, and all of them were brought back to Manila and humiliated.
• 1629: Sulu forces commanded by Datu Ache attacked Spanish settlements in Camarines, Samar, Leyte, and Bohol.
• 1631: Sulu warriors launched another invasion aimed at Leyte, the seat of Spanish power in the Visayas.
• 1632: Sultan Qudarat (Sultan of Maguindanao) made a marriage alliance by marrying the daughter of Rajah Bungsu, the Sultan of Sulu.
• 1634: A joint alliance of the Sulu and Maguindanao Sultanates mobilized 1,500 warriors who landed at Dapitan, Leyte, and Bohol in the Visayas.

The challenge before the Spanish colonial regime was how to stop the Muslim invasion of its held-territories. After drawing lessons on the military behavior of the Muslims, the Spaniards changed their approach by establishing a forward force at the enemy’s territory so that the war’s trend could be reversed. This became the focus of the fourth stage of the Moro wars. The attacks on the Visayas did cease, and did not resume, as the Moros looked to expel the Spanish from their homelands.

I believe that this 35-year period of Moro incursions against the Spanish is the most likely time for this sword to have been collected by a Waray during conflict with Moro raiders. We have no record of the Waray coming into conflict with Moros elsewhere. Collection of the sword in the early 1600s would likely mean it was made towards the end of the 1500s or early 1600s. So late-16th to early-17th C would be my estimate for age.

If this estimate is correct, then the composition of the Moro kris had reached its standard form by this time and for about 250 years going forward.

[Edster]

Hello Kai,

Thanks for the gangay-blade explanation. "Tradition" does cover a lot of bases and is accepted by cultures as "Just the way it is" to be a proper kris". Also, I guess that the kris is more for Cultural Presentation than for mechanical strength for fighting.

Best regards,
Ed

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Edster

Hello Kai,

Thanks for the gangay-blade explanation. "Tradition" does cover a lot of bases and is accepted by cultures as "Just the way it is" to be a proper kris". Also, I guess that the kris is more for Cultural Presentation than for mechanical strength for fighting.

Best regards,
Ed

Hi Ed,

The Moro kris was very much a fighting weapon, although it was often imbued with mystical and other symbolic meaning (consistent mainly with pre-Islamic beliefs). In the second half of the 19th C, the kris was "upgraded" to have a heavier, wider, and perhaps slightly longer blade to better combat the Spanish blades being used at that time. Combat kris also became mostly straight-bladed swords in this period.

Regards, Ian

[kai]

Hello Ed,

Thanks for the gangay-blade explanation. "Tradition" does cover a lot of bases and is accepted by cultures as "Just the way it is" to be a proper kris"

There is lots of underlying meaning: However it apparently changed through time and, especially, between cultures. This would need a really long essay to do the topic justice...

Also, I guess that the kris is more for Cultural Presentation than for mechanical strength for fighting.

The Moro kris has been an all-out fighting blade into at least the 1990s; during the colonial period, US soldiers considered kris wounds more deadly than those inflicted by the formidable barung.

The Indo-Malay keris was readily utilized in (very) close quarter fighting, too. Obviously, it's a specialized dagger and not designed to excel at chopping/cutting/etc.

Regards,
Kai

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ed,


There is lots of underlying meaning: However it apparently changed through time and, especially, between cultures. This would need a really long essay to do the topic justice...



The Moro kris has been an all-out fighting blade into at least the 1990s; during the colonial period, US soldiers considered kris wounds more deadly than those inflicted by the formidable barung.

The Indo-Malay keris was readily utilized in (very) close quarter fighting, too. Obviously, it's a specialized dagger and not designed to excel at chopping/cutting/etc.

Regards,
Kai

Halloo Kai, I was going to write a long response to discuss the "all-out fighting blade" part, but I decided to just write an article about it (it'll take some time, but when I'm done I'll link it here).

Although in summary, not all Moro krises were meant to be fighting blades. While all Moro krises (except for the tourist ones) were functional and sharp and capable of killing, not all of them were built with battlefield purpose in mind.

[xasterix]

Regarding archaic kris, I understand that there may be different views on what would qualify as "archaic" with regard to timeline, blade build, etc; however I believe that a round tang would automatically qualify a Moro kris as archaic.

That being said- it's not a foolproof indicator, as I've seen krises which had their tang replaced at a later era.

[Gustav]

Just a couple of facts to regain some attachment to reality:

I have looked into Spanish museums for some time now. Until now I haven't found any Kris from Phillipines in their collections that would predate 1800.

There, as Alan has pointed out many times, is a Kris, which probably everybody nowadays would call an "archaic" Moro Kris in its pure form. It comes from Brunei and was made in 1842.

-------------------

We have two tendencies. The first one I would call academic, it works with available dates, and treats these dates as facts. Everything else ranges between hypothesis and speculation.

The second is amateurs approach and is based on speculations going beyond the available dates.

The possible truth often enough is situated somewhere between these viewpoints in my opinion.


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What I personally see in the Kris from this thread is an old blade with very possibly reworked fretwork (Greneng in Javanese Terminology), conservatively datable from first half of 19th cent., in a dress from the turn of 19th/20th centuries.

[kai]

Hello Ian,

Interesting thoughts:

We came to the conclusion that should a Waray have acquired this sword through means other than conflict (i.e., through trade, intermarriage, or as a gift) it would have remained in Moro dress. To re-dress a distinguished Moro sword with a local hilt and scabbard would be considered an "abomination" by the Moro, and definitely an unfriendly and insulting thing to do. Therefore, we might reasonably conclude in this case that the sword was taken from a fallen Moro as a result of armed conflict.

The quality and mysticism of the sword requires that it was owned by royalty or perhaps a panglima. This, in turn, suggests a significant battle between Moros and Visayans. Several such battles occurred in the Visayas between the Moros and Spanish forces during what has been termed the third phase of the Spanish-Moro War (see here). Between 1599 and 1634 several large scale punitive raids were conducted by the Moros against the Spanish-held areas in the Visayas:
<snip>

I believe that this 35-year period of Moro incursions against the Spanish is the most likely time for this sword to have been collected by a Waray during conflict with Moro raiders. We have no record of the Waray coming into conflict with Moros elsewhere. Collection of the sword in the early 1600s would likely mean it was made towards the end of the 1500s or early 1600s. So late-16th to early-17th C would be my estimate for age.

This all is based on quite a few assumptions. Just as an example, fittings will usually rot away within several decades; in such case, even a revered gift blade will get refitted in local fittings rather than new fittings made in the original style.

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ian,

Interesting thoughts:

This all is based on quite a few assumptions. Just as an example, fittings will usually rot away within several decades; in such case, even a revered gift blade will get refitted in local fittings rather than new fittings made in the original style.

Regards,
Kai

Yes, scabbards and hilts do wear out and need replacing. However, there are examples where very old hilts remain and scabbards can be well preserved for centuries, even in the tropics. As far as a lot of assumptions, I think the arguments are plausible and provide the most coherent story for this sword. I doubt that we will find "smoking guns" for the history of the Moro kris. Rather, it will be like this one, drawing inferences based on history and judgement. There may be some items hidden away in Spanish or Filipino collections that could help, and one always hopes to find a gem in an auction. The information contained on this Forum's pages may be a rich source for future researchers also.

What I'm trying to do is put out reasoned ideas (hypotheses) that others can support or refute with new evidence. My main message with this sword is that the elements of what Cato calls "archaic kris" might be traced back to early in the 17th C, and possibly before. That's about 200 years earlier than Cato's "pre-1800" statement might suggest. I think that is an important point to pursue when thinking about the development of the Moro kris.

[Ian]

... I beg to differ: This is not a typical archaic blade and I guess this actually is a later variant. I base this on the separation line, the blade proportions, the pronounced luk, the greneng style, etc. In addition, this type of inlay also seems later.

Hi Kai. Care to elaborate on these various points. I have been going through a number of online sites looking at what might be considered archaic kris. It is difficult to define a "typical" archaic kris based on the criteria you listed.

As to Cato's description, he did research older kris, visiting museums in various countries, talking to Moro informants, etc. While there are areas where he may be a bit off the mark, I don't think he was wildly off with his view of archaic kris. The man put in some serious hours getting his book together, probably more than you or I have in actual research of items in hand and in collections.

I understand your skepticism. However, the concerns you raise are not well validated and carry assumptions also. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I see a lot of cautious statements about the age of Moro weapons, lumping many into late-19th C or early-20th C pieces, when they may well be considerably older.

Returning to the sword at the top of this thread. There are several questions to answer if an alternative time frame is proposed. Most importantly is how and when did this old kris get re-dressed in an old-style Waray scabbard and hilt? I have pointed to the fact that such an action performed on a nobility kris would be seen as a hostile act by Moros. Why was this done? What was the historical relationship between Waray and Moro at that time? IMHO these questions are no less important in answering how old this kris may be than the finer details of the features of the kris itself.