Very old Visayan kris

[Ian]

Originally Posted by David

OK. Don't believe that keris is Bugis though.
Also, as Kai pointed out, 17th century (which is how that keris is described in the linked post) is far beyond the even the late Mojopahit period.

David,

You may be correct. I am no keris expert. I was guided by Albert's description, which I posted with the pictures of that keris. Albert noted that it was the oldest item from the royal house that acquired it. The Dutch ancestor who collected the keris was the head of the VOC at the time, as noted in the thread I referenced.

Whether or not it was a Bugis or Java keris, it reflected the style of keris dating from the late Majapahit period. As noted in my reply to Kai above, contact of seafaring Sulu and Mindanao groups with various parts of the Majapahit Empire likely occurred well before the 16th C, so the rather late Bugis (?) example may be moot.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

David,

You may be correct. I am no keris expert. I was guided by Albert's description, which I posted with the pictures of that keris. Albert noted that it was the oldest item from the royal house that acquired it. The Dutch ancestor who collected the keris was the head of the VOC at the time, as noted in the thread I referenced.

Whether or not it was a Bugis or Java keris, it reflected the style of keris dating from the late Majapahit period. As noted in my reply to Kai above, contact of seafaring Sulu and Mindanao groups with various parts of the Majapahit Empire likely occurred well before the 16th C, so the rather late Bugis (?) example may be moot.

Well there is no question is my mind that this blade is NOT Bugis in origin, regardless of what dress it my have eventually ended up in or where it was collected. Since i had thought this discussion concerned the evolution of the Moro keris and what Indonesian cultures may have influenced it most i believe being accurate about the origin of this keris blade might be important to that conversation.

[Edster]

Thanks Ian!! The more I visit the Forum the more I learn about ethnographic weapons.

Best,
Ed

[Ian]

Originally Posted by David

Well there is no question is my mind that this blade is NOT Bugis in origin, regardless of what dress it may have eventually ended up in or where it was collected. Since i had thought this discussion concerned the evolution of the Moro keris and what Indonesian cultures may have influenced it most i believe being accurate about the origin of this keris blade might be important to that conversation.

Thank you David. Accuracy is important. Perhaps Albert van Z may like to comment further on this old keris.

[kai]

Hello Ian,

Whether or not it was a Bugis or Java keris, it reflected the style of keris dating from the late Majapahit period.

Actually, we don't know for sure!

There is no doubt that Mojopahit cultural influences carried over into subsequent ruling houses on Java (and elsewhere).

However, there are no extant "modern" keris blades (as the one early "collected" by the VOC) whose origin can be safely established to predate Mataram. Aside from the keris buda (a type which probably was already around in even earlier times), there is no specific style of keris that is surely known from the period when Mojo culture widely influenced much of maritime SE Asia.

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

Originally Posted by kai

... There is no doubt that Mojopahit cultural influences carried over into subsequent ruling houses on Java (and elsewhere).

However, there are no extant "modern" keris blades (as the one early "collected" by the VOC) whose origin can be safely established to predate Mataram. Aside from the keris buda (a type which probably was already around in even earlier times), there is no specific style of keris that is surely known from the period when Mojo culture widely influenced much of maritime SE Asia.

Regards,
Kai

Thanks Kai. Actually, I was going also on what Alan Maisey has written on his website about the origins of the modern keris and his reference to extant examples in monumental representations and in European collections:

The earliest known monumental representation of a keris being used in the way that the Modern Keris is used, that is, as a rapier, is found at Candi Panataran (pre-dates 1454), in East Java, near Blitar. By 1437 the Modern Keris had appeared in monumental works at Candi Sukuh, and before the year 1600 the keris in Java had developed into a number of highly elaborate forms, some with a waved blade, and many with ornamental features that are virtually impossible to explain as having any practical function. These features must by their very nature, be viewed as iconographic.

We are able to fix the parameters of this period of change, as monumental depictions of the keris prior to 1300 show the Keris Buda form, and monumental depictions after 1300 begin to show the elongated form of the keris, which I refer to as the Modern Keris. The probability that the Modern Keris first appeared between 1300 and 1600 is further reinforced by the existence of a number of keris which entered Europe in the early years of the 17th century. In the Bargello Museum in Florence, Italy are three keris which entered Europe prior to 1631. These keris were once in the possession of the Medici Family, and their entry to Europe can be accurately dated. Other keris which entered Europe prior to 1700 can be found in several other museums in Europe, and a few of these pre-date 1600 (14). Many of these keris have been published (6), and in all cases these keris display a highly developed form that is very little different to the form of the Javanese keris in later periods, right through to today. Such sophisticated development in a comparatively short space of time, and from a very basic beginning does not occur without deliberate action to generate the development.

Alan provides a fairly clear date of 1300 CE for the appearance of the keris in its elongated "modern" form. The examples in European collections that pre-date 1600 do show the Modern Keris form, little different from what we see in later Javanese keris and can be found today.

[kai]

Hello Ian,

Actually, I was going also on what Alan Maisey has written on his website about the origins of the modern keris and his reference to extant examples in monumental representations and in European collections:


Alan provides a fairly clear date of 1300 CE for the appearance of the keris in its elongated "modern" form. The examples in European collections that pre-date 1600 do show the Modern Keris form, little different from what we see in later Javanese keris and can be found today.

Actually, Alan argues for the modern keris to appear around mid-14th century, possibly/probably during Gajahmuda's role as main royal advisor and military lead. Convincing idea and a good working hypothesis.

During this period, the keris seems to have been limited to very select members of society (i.e. the ruling class).

Regards,
Kai