A naginata ... real or fake.

[CutlassCollector]

I would agree, it looks good and also not so far gone that it cannot be re-polished, but as Rich says, that is expensive but costed per inch of blade so less for a naginata than a long sword!

Unlike most other collectors, who tend to preserve the sword as it is, those who favour Japanese swords prefer them shiny to show off the grain and the hamon.

Naginata were used extensively by samurai warriors, by foot soldiers in battle and by samurai wives I think mostly as home defence.

The characters look much more than a signature and may well include a date or the place it was made. Dates are usually in a form relating to the year of the then emperor's reign.

Go for it!!

[Ren Ren]

Unfortunately, I can't translate the signature, but I really liked the calligraphy. Beautiful, strong, confident handwriting!

[fernando]

Gentlemen, i am amazed with the excelent support given so far, for which i am so much obliged. It is visible that i am no Nihonto connoisseur, or i would never 'invest' in an example in such poor condition, thus having no chance to recuperate its original splendor. Still i am pleased to have gone for it, and so happy that it is the real thing, which was after all my actual concern.
So i assume that, having no risk to further damage its collectable charm, i will deal with it as i deal with 'normal Western' swords, that is, eliminate the active rust with the minimum abrazion possible and one or two touch ups on the pole.
Meanwile i would like to show what has been done on the blade, and will also post new photos of the characters, testing different lights and positions, with hopes that they are now (more) readable, which possible success would be of a great added valuable for me.
Again my appologies to those who collect this type of weaponry, hoping they will be tolerant to my crime.


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[Interested Party]

Interesting find Fernando. What is the overall length?

For my own edification. In a piece like this with evidence of an insect infestation does the piece need to be treated to prevent the risk of the infestation spreading to other items it is stored with?

[Tim Simmons]

I think that is a super thing to have. Really like the thousands of pieces of shell .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think that is a super thing to have. Really like the thousands of pieces of shell .

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[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

... Really like the thousands of pieces of shell .

? - I presume you refer to the grip section wrapped in ray skin.


Naginata are cool. Wish I could afford one.


Re:tang - is the corresponding socket deeper than the tang length? Longer ones I think had two holes for the bamboo pins, does the haft have two? if broken, the missing bit may be still in there somewhere. It may even have been rehafted after breaking & the tang may fit accordingly. (I only see one hole for the meguki pin in the rayskin section.)

[CutlassCollector]

My interest in Japanese arms faded some time ago but I retained some items including this naginata.

I post it here as it is a similar shape to Fernando's but it is of much poorer quality and I have doubted it's authenticity because of that. There is no signature on the tang but good file marks and a punched hole. The pole is missing some fittings. Perhaps it was mass produced for a foot soldier rather than a superior signed blade fit for a samurai.

It has also lost some red lacquer from the fuller which does not help the look. I decided give it the benefit of the doubt and kept it with no intention of making it shiny - just preserved.

CC

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by kronckew

? - I presume you refer to the grip section wrapped in ray skin.
)

I am quite sure that this is mother of pearl lacquer.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I presume you refer to the grip section wrapped in ray skin...

Mother of pearl, as already confirmed.

Originally Posted by kronckew

...Naginata are cool. Wish I could afford one ...

Mine wasn't expensive; obviously due to its condition.

Originally Posted by kronckew

...Re:tang - is the corresponding socket deeper than the tang length? Longer ones I think had two holes for the bamboo pins, does the haft have two? if broken, the missing bit may be still in there somewhere. It may even have been rehafted after breaking & the tang may fit accordingly. (I only see one hole for the meguki pin in the rayskin section.)

After disassembling it and before mounting it back, i had a good look and must conclude that the blade and the haft were not made for each other. Some story i can't figure out. The mekugi hole does not coincide with the hole on the blade ... by over an inch.The blade has not been broken but cut off; maybe for the version to adapt it to a wakizashi, as already approached ... i wouldn't know.

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[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Interesting find Fernando. What is the overall length?

For my own edification. In a piece like this with evidence of an insect infestation does the piece need to be treated to prevent the risk of the infestation spreading to other items it is stored with?

The whole thing measures 2,5 meters ... assuming one part originaly belonged to the other. The pole weighs 1.164 grams and the blade 512 grams. It won't be stored, but exposed somewhere i didn't yet decide. How would you eliminate the woodworm ? Funy thing; if i bump the floor cap down nothing happens, but if i hit it blade down a lot of dust comes out the holes. Could these worms be dead by now ?

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by fernando

How would you eliminate the woodworm ? Funy thing; if i bump the floor cap down nothing happens, but if i hit it blade down a lot of dust comes out the holes. Could these worms be dead by now ?

Hi Fernando,

Nice naginata. I have no problem with the condition of this naginata showing its age.
As for the wormholes, as soon as you see holes, the worms turned into bugs and left the wood to find mates to reproduce.
techincally they can lay eggs in the same wood again, but not likely.
Probably you can buy some poison in a drugstore. Also the worms dont like petrol and ammonia.
But be carefull with the lacquer I have no idea how that reacts on chemicals.

Sometimes I see wakizashi made from Naginata blades. they are reaaly cool

Best regards,
Willem

[fernando]

Originally Posted by asomotif

... Probably you can buy some poison in a drugstore. Also the worms dont like petrol and ammonia.
But be carefull with the lacquer I have no idea how that reacts on chemicals ...

Thank you Willem. I went for ammonia; bought a bottle of it in the drugstore. I keep syringes and needles since my paramedic service in the Army. One of these days i will give it a try; starting by the bottom, to check if the liquid stains the wood.

[ariel]

That is exactly the reason I do not collect Nihonto: it is supposed to be either perfect or it is junk

[Klop]

my 2 cents; the tang (nakago) seems to be shortened, ending square and I would expect it to be about the same length as the blade part. At the japanese sword forum Nihonto Message Board they have a translation help section, advice would be to post it there. Signatures often follow patterns, in this case possibly: Provence name -honorary title- smith name-"made by". Please let us know what it turns out to be

Oh, and maybe redundant; don't clean/sand/polish/whatever the nakago. Color and filemarks are indicators of age.

Kind regards,
Eric

[fernando]

Thank you Eric; will do. Someone is already helping me establish such contact.
And by the way; about the shortened tang:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/naginata.html

[Battara]

Originally Posted by ariel

That is exactly the reason I do not collect Nihonto: it is supposed to be either perfect or it is junk

I'll make a small correction to this statement: if the blade is very old, like Koto (500+ years old) or so, then some flaws are in fact expected and do not detract horribly to the value. Old blades like this may have some kizu or blisters, but where they are on the blade and how they are positioned will determine value. On later pieces, Ariel is correct - perfection is preferred if not expected.

(Sorry Ariel for the accidental editing - wrong button )

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Battara

... perfection is preferred if not expected...

Let us then give a chance to a wider notion of perfection.
Suppose, in my imagination, i find evidence that the item in discussion was brought back by Portuguese navigators during the XVI century or so.
I would clearly reject any proposal to swap it for any 'common' example in pristine condition ... with ID card and all.
No doubt my Naginata is not indicated for Nihonto perfectionists but, would be the 'perfect find' for me .


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[CutlassCollector]

Originally Posted by fernando

Let us then give a chance to a wider notion of perfection.
Suppose, in my imagination, i find evidence that the item in discussion was brought back by Portuguese navigators during the XVI century or so.
I would clearly reject any proposal to swap it for any 'common' example in pristine condition ... with ID card and all.
No doubt my Naginata is not indicated for Nihonto perfectionists but, would be the 'perfect find' for me .
.

And no doubt it is a great find Fernando and a worthy addition to your collection preserved as it is.

Good finds and history is what makes collecting so interesting.

It could well have been brought back with the early explorers but I have another theory that occurs to me because the blade is in such good condition for a 500 year old sword - compare it with western blades of the same age, that have not spent life in a museum.
It suggests, perhaps, that it was treasured and cared for by a samurai family for generations and only in the last few decades has it been left to rust.
We know the samurai did not just disappear but became the officer class in army, navy and air force. They took their ancestral swords to war in modern mounts. Some pilots carried short blades - wakizashi or tanto in their cockpits and a naginata can be mounted in short sword form with a shortened tang.

After the Japanese defeat in 1945 the swords were surrendered. Soldiers took them home as spoils of war and it is thought that over 100,000 Japanese swords are in the USA and many more in the UK and Europe. Many of these would not have been subject to the same regular care as in a Japanese household.

Just a theory of course, but it would help explain its great condition.

[fernando]

Thank you CC.
A rather rational reasoning .

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
These items may possibly be of assistance.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by fernando

Let us then give a chance to a wider notion of perfection.
Suppose, in my imagination, i find evidence that the item in discussion was brought back by Portuguese navigators during the XVI century or so.
I would clearly reject any proposal to swap it for any 'common' example in pristine condition ... with ID card and all.
No doubt my Naginata is not indicated for Nihonto perfectionists but, would be the 'perfect find' for me .

I had the good fortune to see this amazing screen a few years ago in Moscow at an exhibition dedicated to Portuguese navigators. Unfortunately, there were almost no weapons there (which I hoped in my heart). But there were wonderful objects of the XV-XVII centuries from Japan, China, India, West Africa, which changed my point of view on the works of that era. In particular, Japanese lacquerware is very different from our usual products of the XIX-XX centuries. The same can be attributed to Chinese porcelain.

In my opinion, Japanese weapons of the XVI-XVIII centuries located in European museums and got there before the lifting of the ban after the Meiji restoration, is an interesting subject for scientific research. In addition to the very fact of its presence, this weapon can tell a lot about the diplomatic, trade and cultural ties between the states and peoples of the East and West. I am sure that in Portugal they can tell a lot about this to the whole world. And it is hard to imagine how much we could have known if the Great Lisbon earthquake of 1755 had not destroyed so many artifacts and documents of the history of navigation.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

I had the good fortune to see this amazing screen a few years ago in Moscow at an exhibition dedicated to Portuguese navigators. Unfortunately, there were almost no weapons there (which I hoped in my heart). But there were wonderful objects of the XV-XVII centuries from Japan, China, India, West Africa, which changed my point of view on the works of that era. In particular, Japanese lacquerware is very different from our usual products of the XIX-XX centuries. The same can be attributed to Chinese porcelain.

In my opinion, Japanese weapons of the XVI-XVIII centuries located in European museums and got there before the lifting of the ban after the Meiji restoration, is an interesting subject for scientific research. In addition to the very fact of its presence, this weapon can tell a lot about the diplomatic, trade and cultural ties between the states and peoples of the East and West. I am sure that in Portugal they can tell a lot about this to the whole world. And it is hard to imagine how much we could have known if the Great Lisbon earthquake of 1755 had not destroyed so many artifacts and documents of the history of navigation.

Absolutely, Ren Ren. I see that you are well informed. In the great exhibition "ENCOMPASSING THE GLOBE - Portugal and the World in the 16th & 17th Centuries (organized by the Smithsonian), several examples of Japanese/Portuguese cultural exchange, the so called Nanban Art, may be seen; from which a powder flask, a couple of Nagenashima muskets ... and a Christian Japanese ( note the crucifix).


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[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by fernando

Absolutely, Ren Ren. I see that you are well informed. In the great exhibition "ENCOMPASSING THE GLOBE - Portugal and the World in the 16th & 17th Centuries (organized by the Smithsonian), several examples of Japanese/Portuguese cultural exchange, the so called Nanban Art, may be seen; from which a powder flask, a couple of Nagenashima muskets ... and a Christian Japanese ( note the crucifix).


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Thanks Fernando! These are rare and wonderful examples of Japan's cross-cultural connections.