Strange indian hanger with (pseudo?) genoese marks

David R · 26th September 2022, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Birds don't sing upside down, and the shield motif on the other side of the chape is also upside down.

Makes no sense so I'll vote for a 'married' piece with Indian made blade.

My thought as well.

Richard G · 26th September 2022, 12:30 PM

The scabbard fittings appear to be orientated so as to be viewed with the chape up, apart from one side of the locket, which is the 'right' way up.
I wonder if it is a piece put together by a silversmith, intent on his silversmithing, rather than by a sword or knife cutler, who would probably have a more instinctive feel for the orientation of fittings.
Best wishes
Richard

Tim Simmons · 26th September 2022, 04:46 PM

I would think this is not made by one person. I still feel the decoration is a third hand or more working to the art nouveau styles that were influencing Indian crafts people. You can find stuff on this style influence on city art schools of the time. Not all work would be carried out in the sophisticated centres of production.

Tim Simmons · 26th September 2022, 04:56 PM

Colonial influence on Indian art. Just to show it was well established.
https://www.livehistoryindia.com/sto...colonial-india

kronckew · 29th September 2022, 03:04 PM

The bird on the chape is also perched as if the chape were pointing up. And the flowers on the throat piece also are growing towards the tip.

I suspect they were cast with the lost wax method by a jeweller who had no knowledge of how weapons should be oriented, and who found it easier to carve the wax mould bits with the flat base on his table, and for orienting when he set the wax bits in the container for making the proper plaster mould, so they didn't fall over as the mould cured. Carving a bird & flowers upside down is a feat most of us would not accomplish. Try writing & drawing backwards like Leonardo. ��

Any bird watchers here that may recognize the bird & it's origin?

In any case, the blade/grip may originally had a different scabbard or sheath and and the present one is an 'upgrade' for a rising status owner. Maybe the hand grip is too. It has a rather worm-like form. Overall the scabbard does look rather nepali kothimora, like my khukuri (below)

I have an 3,000 yr. old Egyptian bronze penetrative age axe whose haft has been replaced three times and the axe head twice.

David R · 30th September 2022, 08:16 AM

The more I look at this one, the more I think it's an assemblage of parts rather than made from the start in the form it has now. The chape and locket certainly look like reused pieces from something entirely different, perhaps a high quality "nurses buckle" or chatelaine. The blade from a hanger, and the same for the grip. The ball ended guard, well I have a dagger with near the exact same. I am not dissing the piece, it's very handsome and all of the old stuff has a history of repair and refurbishment.
(eg the infamous "Cromwells dagger", which had three new hilts and two new blades before it reached the museum.)

Jim McDougall · 30th September 2022, 04:26 PM

With all the compelling and interesting entries supporting an assemblage made in India and the very intriguing suggestions by Wayne noting the kothimora, I am inclined to agree. As I have noted earlier the Scottish thistle, while not typically among elements of the arts of India, is of course likely included in the European influences which clearly were profound as noted by Tim Simmons.

The more I look at this blade, the more it seems quite possibly an earlier Italian blade from a storta or short falchion type saber of this sort. The sickle seems like a genuine mark from what I can see. It was not at all unusual for Italian blades to appear in Indian arms, though of these types not as much.

26th September 2022, 04:46 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	I would think this is not made by one person. I still feel the decoration is a third hand or more working to the art nouveau styles that were influencing Indian crafts people. You can find stuff on this style influence on city art schools of the time. Not all work would be carried out in the sophisticated centres of production. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 26th September 2022 at 06:16 PM.

29th September 2022, 03:04 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	The bird on the chape is also perched as if the chape were pointing up. And the flowers on the throat piece also are growing towards the tip. I suspect they were cast with the lost wax method by a jeweller who had no knowledge of how weapons should be oriented, and who found it easier to carve the wax mould bits with the flat base on his table, and for orienting when he set the wax bits in the container for making the proper plaster mould, so they didn't fall over as the mould cured. Carving a bird & flowers upside down is a feat most of us would not accomplish. Try writing & drawing backwards like Leonardo. �� Any bird watchers here that may recognize the bird & it's origin? In any case, the blade/grip may originally had a different scabbard or sheath and and the present one is an 'upgrade' for a rising status owner. Maybe the hand grip is too. It has a rather worm-like form. Overall the scabbard does look rather nepali kothimora, like my khukuri (below) I have an 3,000 yr. old Egyptian bronze penetrative age axe whose haft has been replaced three times and the axe head twice. Attached Images

30th September 2022, 08:16 AM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	The more I look at this one, the more I think it's an assemblage of parts rather than made from the start in the form it has now. The chape and locket certainly look like reused pieces from something entirely different, perhaps a high quality "nurses buckle" or chatelaine. The blade from a hanger, and the same for the grip. The ball ended guard, well I have a dagger with near the exact same. I am not dissing the piece, it's very handsome and all of the old stuff has a history of repair and refurbishment. (eg the infamous "Cromwells dagger", which had three new hilts and two new blades before it reached the museum.) Attached Images

26th September 2022, 12:30 PM	#2
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	The scabbard fittings appear to be orientated so as to be viewed with the chape up, apart from one side of the locket, which is the 'right' way up. I wonder if it is a piece put together by a silversmith, intent on his silversmithing, rather than by a sword or knife cutler, who would probably have a more instinctive feel for the orientation of fittings. Best wishes Richard

26th September 2022, 04:56 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Colonial influence on Indian art. Just to show it was well established. https://www.livehistoryindia.com/sto...colonial-india

30th September 2022, 04:26 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	With all the compelling and interesting entries supporting an assemblage made in India and the very intriguing suggestions by Wayne noting the kothimora, I am inclined to agree. As I have noted earlier the Scottish thistle, while not typically among elements of the arts of India, is of course likely included in the European influences which clearly were profound as noted by Tim Simmons. The more I look at this blade, the more it seems quite possibly an earlier Italian blade from a storta or short falchion type saber of this sort. The sickle seems like a genuine mark from what I can see. It was not at all unusual for Italian blades to appear in Indian arms, though of these types not as much.