Strange indian hanger with (pseudo?) genoese marks

Rick · 25th September 2022, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

Old blade, repurposed silver work on scabbard, odd and seemingly unused hilt, I don't see it as representative of any particular culture, rather an assemblage possibly completed in India for an aficionado of the eclectic.

I'm probably wrong, of course. Kinda pretty, for all that; certainly eye-catching.

Birds don't sing upside down, and the shield motif on the other side of the chape is also upside down.

Makes no sense so I'll vote for a 'married' piece with Indian made blade.

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2022, 06:49 PM

It has always been my understanding that a sword is viewed being held upright, not downward as when worn. However looking at the vegetal pattern on the throat it does seem the leaves are pointing upward so would be inverted if sword viewed upright. This type of blade is not as far as I have known been produced in India, even in the modern reproduction market. It is known that the 'sickle' mark often (even almost typically) occurs on the blades of North Indian sabers known as paluoar and Afghan associated, but these are not of the same character as this.

The thistle as seen in the floral pierced pattern on the chape is of course typically regarded as Scottish. The black background against silver is of course mindful of the bidri metal work in India, so bring drawn to that association seems well placed. I will say that there was a degree of Scottish presence in India during the Raj in the 18th c. so there is some commemorative potential in some degree, but this seemingly Austrian blade is it seems misplaced in that notion.

Richard G · 25th September 2022, 09:36 PM

I'm not sure I fully agree with you here, Jim.
Sword blades would normally be read with the point held high, but not necessarily other parts of a sword. The British 1803 Infantry sabre, for example, had a cypher on the knuckle guard that is upside down if the sword point is held aloft. Also, I can't think of any situation when a scabbard would be held with the chape aloft, so it makes sense for decoration to be orientated to be viewed with the chape down.
Best wishes
Richard

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2022, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

I'm not sure I fully agree with you here, Jim.
Sword blades would normally be read with the point held high, but not necessarily other parts of a sword. The British 1803 Infantry sabre, for example, had a cypher on the knuckle guard that is upside down if the sword point is held aloft. Also, I can't think of any situation when a scabbard would be held with the chape aloft, so it makes sense for decoration to be orientated to be viewed with the chape down.
Best wishes
Richard

I was thinking that, as I saw the throat oriented different than the chape as the leaves would be pointed downward on the throat as held upright. It is confusing as many discussions over the years on blade decoration claimed held upright was proper to read inscriptions, motif.....but not sure that was entirely consistent. Still I am not sure the orientation of the scabbard motif would be held as a determining factor. Interesting in discussion though!
Well made point on the 1803.,

Gonzoadler · 26th September 2022, 07:06 AM

I want to say that this is an interesting discussion here. I made some additional pichtures of the silver parts, maybe they can help.

Tim Simmons · 26th September 2022, 07:27 AM

The decoration looks like Indian version of Art Nouveau . Would not be surprised if it was a hunting hanger for a British officer or high ranking bod of some kind.

David R · 26th September 2022, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Birds don't sing upside down, and the shield motif on the other side of the chape is also upside down.

Makes no sense so I'll vote for a 'married' piece with Indian made blade.

My thought as well.

Richard G · 26th September 2022, 12:30 PM

The scabbard fittings appear to be orientated so as to be viewed with the chape up, apart from one side of the locket, which is the 'right' way up.
I wonder if it is a piece put together by a silversmith, intent on his silversmithing, rather than by a sword or knife cutler, who would probably have a more instinctive feel for the orientation of fittings.
Best wishes
Richard

Tim Simmons · 26th September 2022, 04:46 PM

I would think this is not made by one person. I still feel the decoration is a third hand or more working to the art nouveau styles that were influencing Indian crafts people. You can find stuff on this style influence on city art schools of the time. Not all work would be carried out in the sophisticated centres of production.

Tim Simmons · 26th September 2022, 04:56 PM

Colonial influence on Indian art. Just to show it was well established.
https://www.livehistoryindia.com/sto...colonial-india

kronckew · 29th September 2022, 03:04 PM

The bird on the chape is also perched as if the chape were pointing up. And the flowers on the throat piece also are growing towards the tip.

I suspect they were cast with the lost wax method by a jeweller who had no knowledge of how weapons should be oriented, and who found it easier to carve the wax mould bits with the flat base on his table, and for orienting when he set the wax bits in the container for making the proper plaster mould, so they didn't fall over as the mould cured. Carving a bird & flowers upside down is a feat most of us would not accomplish. Try writing & drawing backwards like Leonardo. ��

Any bird watchers here that may recognize the bird & it's origin?

In any case, the blade/grip may originally had a different scabbard or sheath and and the present one is an 'upgrade' for a rising status owner. Maybe the hand grip is too. It has a rather worm-like form. Overall the scabbard does look rather nepali kothimora, like my khukuri (below)

I have an 3,000 yr. old Egyptian bronze penetrative age axe whose haft has been replaced three times and the axe head twice.

David R · 30th September 2022, 08:16 AM

The more I look at this one, the more I think it's an assemblage of parts rather than made from the start in the form it has now. The chape and locket certainly look like reused pieces from something entirely different, perhaps a high quality "nurses buckle" or chatelaine. The blade from a hanger, and the same for the grip. The ball ended guard, well I have a dagger with near the exact same. I am not dissing the piece, it's very handsome and all of the old stuff has a history of repair and refurbishment.
(eg the infamous "Cromwells dagger", which had three new hilts and two new blades before it reached the museum.)

25th September 2022, 06:49 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	It has always been my understanding that a sword is viewed being held upright, not downward as when worn. However looking at the vegetal pattern on the throat it does seem the leaves are pointing upward so would be inverted if sword viewed upright. This type of blade is not as far as I have known been produced in India, even in the modern reproduction market. It is known that the 'sickle' mark often (even almost typically) occurs on the blades of North Indian sabers known as paluoar and Afghan associated, but these are not of the same character as this. The thistle as seen in the floral pierced pattern on the chape is of course typically regarded as Scottish. The black background against silver is of course mindful of the bidri metal work in India, so bring drawn to that association seems well placed. I will say that there was a degree of Scottish presence in India during the Raj in the 18th c. so there is some commemorative potential in some degree, but this seemingly Austrian blade is it seems misplaced in that notion. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th September 2022 at 07:19 PM.

26th September 2022, 07:06 AM	#5
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	I want to say that this is an interesting discussion here. I made some additional pichtures of the silver parts, maybe they can help. Attached Images

26th September 2022, 04:46 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	I would think this is not made by one person. I still feel the decoration is a third hand or more working to the art nouveau styles that were influencing Indian crafts people. You can find stuff on this style influence on city art schools of the time. Not all work would be carried out in the sophisticated centres of production. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 26th September 2022 at 06:16 PM.

29th September 2022, 03:04 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	The bird on the chape is also perched as if the chape were pointing up. And the flowers on the throat piece also are growing towards the tip. I suspect they were cast with the lost wax method by a jeweller who had no knowledge of how weapons should be oriented, and who found it easier to carve the wax mould bits with the flat base on his table, and for orienting when he set the wax bits in the container for making the proper plaster mould, so they didn't fall over as the mould cured. Carving a bird & flowers upside down is a feat most of us would not accomplish. Try writing & drawing backwards like Leonardo. �� Any bird watchers here that may recognize the bird & it's origin? In any case, the blade/grip may originally had a different scabbard or sheath and and the present one is an 'upgrade' for a rising status owner. Maybe the hand grip is too. It has a rather worm-like form. Overall the scabbard does look rather nepali kothimora, like my khukuri (below) I have an 3,000 yr. old Egyptian bronze penetrative age axe whose haft has been replaced three times and the axe head twice. Attached Images

30th September 2022, 08:16 AM	#12
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	The more I look at this one, the more I think it's an assemblage of parts rather than made from the start in the form it has now. The chape and locket certainly look like reused pieces from something entirely different, perhaps a high quality "nurses buckle" or chatelaine. The blade from a hanger, and the same for the grip. The ball ended guard, well I have a dagger with near the exact same. I am not dissing the piece, it's very handsome and all of the old stuff has a history of repair and refurbishment. (eg the infamous "Cromwells dagger", which had three new hilts and two new blades before it reached the museum.) Attached Images

25th September 2022, 09:36 PM	#3
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	I'm not sure I fully agree with you here, Jim. Sword blades would normally be read with the point held high, but not necessarily other parts of a sword. The British 1803 Infantry sabre, for example, had a cypher on the knuckle guard that is upside down if the sword point is held aloft. Also, I can't think of any situation when a scabbard would be held with the chape aloft, so it makes sense for decoration to be orientated to be viewed with the chape down. Best wishes Richard

26th September 2022, 07:27 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	The decoration looks like Indian version of Art Nouveau . Would not be surprised if it was a hunting hanger for a British officer or high ranking bod of some kind.

26th September 2022, 12:30 PM	#8
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	The scabbard fittings appear to be orientated so as to be viewed with the chape up, apart from one side of the locket, which is the 'right' way up. I wonder if it is a piece put together by a silversmith, intent on his silversmithing, rather than by a sword or knife cutler, who would probably have a more instinctive feel for the orientation of fittings. Best wishes Richard

26th September 2022, 04:56 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Colonial influence on Indian art. Just to show it was well established. https://www.livehistoryindia.com/sto...colonial-india