A RECENTLY ACQUIRED CUP HILT SWORD FOR COMMENTS

midelburgo · 6th July 2022, 03:30 PM

Hello Fernando. I believe the Hortuño sword is artistically not in the style of early XVIIth century but rather c1650. The 1900 catalogue of Real Armeria is plagued with errors and legends.

Norman cites two portraits of Felipe IV with a cup hilt:

- Kunsthistorisches of Wien, dated 1632. (moustache).

- NY Metropolitan, dated 1623. But the sword is just a metallic reflection.

There is another portrait at Escorial with the future Felipe IV as a child, in 1612 by Bartolome Gonzalez.

Carlos II as a sickly child shall be about 1669.
It is a pity there is nothing as clear as Carreño de Miranda portrait of the Duke of Pastrana (c1679).

The "orejas" is what Luis Pacheco de Narvaez calls them in his work about Spanish Destreza "Nueva Ciencia" from 1642. "Patillas" sounds to me as XIXth century.
Actually I do not say Flambergue but Flamigera.
I have seen so many clues towards Portugal on those swords, specially when they have langlets finishing in balls and faceted pear shape pommels, that I think you are right. With the caveat that as Solingen made, they will sell them to any comer.
Burton book shall be easy to find as a pdf on internet. IIRC he planned a 3 volume work but he only finished the first one, with generalities and antiquity. A real pity.

fernando · 6th July 2022, 07:16 PM

[QUOTE=midelburgo;273216]Hello Fernando. I believe the Hortuño sword is artistically not in the style of early XVIIth century but rather c1650.
I trust your judgement, by all means. I don't have the knowledge to distinguish that, myself.

The 1900 catalogue of Real Armeria is plagued with errors and legends.
Norman cites two portraits of Felipe IV with a cup hilt:
- Kunsthistorisches of Wien, dated 1632. (moustache).
- NY Metropolitan, dated 1623. But the sword is just a metallic reflection.
There is another portrait at Escorial with the future Felipe IV as a child, in 1612 by Bartolome Gonzalez.
Carlos II as a sickly child shall be about 1669.
It is a pity there is nothing as clear as Carreño de Miranda portrait of the Duke of Pastrana (c1679).
Alright, the Armeria catalogue contains errors ... but so many others. Those dark portraits provided by Norman and his judgement may not be error proof, either. For a start, he assumes the cup hilt is (quote) confined to Spain and lands under Spanish influence, that is Southern Italy and the Spanish Nederlands (unquote), making the mistake to leave out Portugal which, by the way, has been under Spanish Monarchy between 1580-1640. The usual cultural flaw of a few scholars, and not only, who think Portugal was a part of Spanish territory.

The "orejas" is what Luis Pacheco de Narvaez calls them in his work about Spanish Destreza "Nueva Ciencia" from 1642. "Patillas" sounds to me as XIXth century.
Noted. i still can't find a term for that over here. The authors of Armeria de Bragança catalogue, attribute to such extensions the same name as the quillons (quartões), as when there are upper and lower ones.

Actually I do not say Flambergue but Flamigera.
Yes, we could also call them in my language flamigeras or flamejantes, but these sound more like Masonic lexicon, from where the terms seem to originate. I find names like ondeada (undulated) more suitable.

.

fernando · 7th July 2022, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... The "orejas" is what Luis Pacheco de Narvaez calls them in his work about Spanish Destreza "Nueva Ciencia" from 1642...
... Burton book shall be easy to find as a pdf on internet...

I have managed to get both PDF works for my perusal. Interesting that i use the search button in "Nueva Ciencia" and can only find "oreja" (single), but this referring to the actual phisical ear. To my frustration i fail to spot the cuphilt "orejas".
I have read the Burton's chapter on the waved blad, which is (sort of) consistent with the opinion of the book author i mentioned in post #7 ,as Burton says "The object seems to be that of increasing the cutting surface".

Attached ... and just for fun; fencers in the training floor (1685).

.

Victrix · 7th July 2022, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I have managed to get both PDF works for my perusal. Interesting that i use the search button in "Nueva Ciencia" and can only find "oreja" (single), but this referring to the actual phisical ear. To my frustration i fail to spot the cuphilt "orejas".
I have read the Burton's chapter on the waved blad, which is (sort of) consistent with the opinion of the book author i mentioned in post #7 ,as Burton says "The object seems to be that of increasing the cutting surface".

Attached ... and just for fun; fencers in the training floor (1685).

.

Are the wavy parts of the blade sharp at all?? If not, they are clearly not for cutting. Looks to me like its decorational for ceremonial use.

fernando · 8th July 2022, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Are the wavy parts of the blade sharp at all?? If not, they are clearly not for cutting. Looks to me like its decorational for ceremonial use.

It depends on whether you see it in pictures or with the naked eye. In the example in discussion, both 'upper' edges and identations are sharpened, with different techniques, so i notice; the sharpness on the lower parts appears more acute. I wonder if the pictures i took are elucidative ... not easy with my humble abilities.
This thing of (any) blades being operational or decorative depending on them being or not sharpen/ed, may not be a black or white issue ... i guess. There is a montante (two handed sword) in Lisbon military Museum, dated circa 1500, attributed to navigator Vasco da Gama, which the photographer (i guess also the caption) defines as being 'almost' decorative, judging by the XVI century period, and i read in period chronicles that the nobility in India, the social class that marched on the front of troops, used such montantes to open way among the opponents. Whether those were not sharpened, would that be a pertinent question ?

.

fernando · 10th July 2022, 04:24 PM

Swords with undulated blades from the Pindela Manor; a collection amassed by the 2nd. Viscount of Pindela (1852-1922). After he died, the widow has deaccessed the collection, which is now exhibited in the State owned Palace of the Dukes of Bragança.

.

midelburgo · 14th July 2022, 01:42 PM

Hello Fernando.
If the "orejas" applied to the pas d'ane is not in "Nueva Ciencia" I have no idea where I read it.
Towards 2005 I read a number of Destreza manuals. It is not in Rada either so far. And Brea (1804) calls them "patillas".
I have been checking the Ordenanzas (1728, 1738, 1762, 1768) and it is not in there. They use "barretas".

Morla (Tratado de Artilleria, second volume, 1817 edition; pages 119-137 deals with swords and sword making, very informative chapter. Toledo factory depended on the Artillery corps) calls them "guardamonte", but that is the whole piece.

Ramirez de Arellano 1767, on Cavalry and Dragoons describes their swords without mentioning these parts.

I have a heavy Main Gauche with a wavy blade, I will check it later maybe its blade comes from a sword as one of the above.

PS. Now I notice. In the drawing of the two fencers fom Thomas Luis, they do not put any finger over the cross (you also do not on the first post). I find taking a cavalry 1728 without passing two fingers over the cross as problematic.

I supose you know about these people:
http://ageaeditora.com/en/livros/

They call the pas d'ane, anéis in Portuguese.
http://ageaeditora.com/en/nomes-partes-da-espada/

midelburgo · 22nd July 2022, 12:09 PM

I found another couple of Portugese wavy swords. IIRC from a Brazilian collection.

fernando · 22nd July 2022, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... They call the pas d'ane, anéis in Portuguese.
http://ageaeditora.com/en/nomes-partes-da-espada/

The actual pas d'ane, i believe, but not the cup fixation 'patillas', i guess.

6th July 2022, 03:30 PM	#1
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 263	Hello Fernando. I believe the Hortuño sword is artistically not in the style of early XVIIth century but rather c1650. The 1900 catalogue of Real Armeria is plagued with errors and legends. Norman cites two portraits of Felipe IV with a cup hilt: - Kunsthistorisches of Wien, dated 1632. (moustache). - NY Metropolitan, dated 1623. But the sword is just a metallic reflection. There is another portrait at Escorial with the future Felipe IV as a child, in 1612 by Bartolome Gonzalez. Carlos II as a sickly child shall be about 1669. It is a pity there is nothing as clear as Carreño de Miranda portrait of the Duke of Pastrana (c1679). The "orejas" is what Luis Pacheco de Narvaez calls them in his work about Spanish Destreza "Nueva Ciencia" from 1642. "Patillas" sounds to me as XIXth century. Actually I do not say Flambergue but Flamigera. I have seen so many clues towards Portugal on those swords, specially when they have langlets finishing in balls and faceted pear shape pommels, that I think you are right. With the caveat that as Solingen made, they will sell them to any comer. Burton book shall be easy to find as a pdf on internet. IIRC he planned a 3 volume work but he only finished the first one, with generalities and antiquity. A real pity. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 6th July 2022 at 03:55 PM.

6th July 2022, 07:16 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	[QUOTE=midelburgo;273216]Hello Fernando. I believe the Hortuño sword is artistically not in the style of early XVIIth century but rather c1650. I trust your judgement, by all means. I don't have the knowledge to distinguish that, myself. The 1900 catalogue of Real Armeria is plagued with errors and legends. Norman cites two portraits of Felipe IV with a cup hilt: - Kunsthistorisches of Wien, dated 1632. (moustache). - NY Metropolitan, dated 1623. But the sword is just a metallic reflection. There is another portrait at Escorial with the future Felipe IV as a child, in 1612 by Bartolome Gonzalez. Carlos II as a sickly child shall be about 1669. It is a pity there is nothing as clear as Carreño de Miranda portrait of the Duke of Pastrana (c1679). Alright, the Armeria catalogue contains errors ... but so many others. Those dark portraits provided by Norman and his judgement may not be error proof, either. For a start, he assumes the cup hilt is (quote) confined to Spain and lands under Spanish influence, that is Southern Italy and the Spanish Nederlands (unquote), making the mistake to leave out Portugal which, by the way, has been under Spanish Monarchy between 1580-1640. The usual cultural flaw of a few scholars, and not only, who think Portugal was a part of Spanish territory. The "orejas" is what Luis Pacheco de Narvaez calls them in his work about Spanish Destreza "Nueva Ciencia" from 1642. "Patillas" sounds to me as XIXth century. Noted. i still can't find a term for that over here. The authors of Armeria de Bragança catalogue, attribute to such extensions the same name as the quillons (quartões), as when there are upper and lower ones. Actually I do not say Flambergue but Flamigera. Yes, we could also call them in my language flamigeras or flamejantes, but these sound more like Masonic lexicon, from where the terms seem to originate. I find names like ondeada (undulated) more suitable. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 6th July 2022 at 08:50 PM.

10th July 2022, 04:24 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Swords with undulated blades from the Pindela Manor; a collection amassed by the 2nd. Viscount of Pindela (1852-1922). After he died, the widow has deaccessed the collection, which is now exhibited in the State owned Palace of the Dukes of Bragança. . Attached Images

22nd July 2022, 12:09 PM	#8
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 263	I found another couple of Portugese wavy swords. IIRC from a Brazilian collection. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 22nd July 2022 at 12:31 PM.

14th July 2022, 01:42 PM	#7
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 263	Hello Fernando. If the "orejas" applied to the pas d'ane is not in "Nueva Ciencia" I have no idea where I read it. Towards 2005 I read a number of Destreza manuals. It is not in Rada either so far. And Brea (1804) calls them "patillas". I have been checking the Ordenanzas (1728, 1738, 1762, 1768) and it is not in there. They use "barretas". Morla (Tratado de Artilleria, second volume, 1817 edition; pages 119-137 deals with swords and sword making, very informative chapter. Toledo factory depended on the Artillery corps) calls them "guardamonte", but that is the whole piece. Ramirez de Arellano 1767, on Cavalry and Dragoons describes their swords without mentioning these parts. I have a heavy Main Gauche with a wavy blade, I will check it later maybe its blade comes from a sword as one of the above. PS. Now I notice. In the drawing of the two fencers fom Thomas Luis, they do not put any finger over the cross (you also do not on the first post). I find taking a cavalry 1728 without passing two fingers over the cross as problematic. I supose you know about these people: http://ageaeditora.com/en/livros/ They call the pas d'ane, anéis in Portuguese. http://ageaeditora.com/en/nomes-partes-da-espada/ Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 15th July 2022 at 10:11 AM.