A Flamberge Sword For Comments

[Ian]

Originally Posted by efrahjalt

I think you may be onto something with the Luzon Kris idea. I did some quick searching and there are definitely some more similarities - longer blades, more luk (thanks for that term Ian), similar guards, straight grips etc. Have a look at the examples in this older post I found while searching:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15997

efrajait,

Thanks for bringing up that old thread. I agree that a northern Luzon origin is a distinct possibility. However, as you will see from the comments of Battara in that thread, there are/were Moro craftsmen in northern Luzon/Ilocos Norte also. The example that I showed in that thread (post no. 14) lacks a central ridge to the blade.

[Battara]

I have also been recently informed that Tagalogs also made wavy blades as well.

[kai]

Hello Ian,

I agree that a northern Luzon origin is a distinct possibility. However, as you will see from the comments of Battara in that thread, there are/were Moro craftsmen in northern Luzon/Ilocos Norte also.

Yes, although by the time this blade got forged they most likely got acculturated (or left for good).

Note that for example the tip is distinct from what you see in genuine Moro blades (and size is often longer, too). There are enough wavy blades throughout the Christian part of the Philippines and there seems to be no reason why we need to attribute pieces like this to Moro bladesmiths (as opposed to just cultural ideas getting picked up by neighbouring communities).

I bet that the tang of this blade is not a typical Moro tang either...

Regards,
Kai

[chmorshuutz]

Yes, Tagalogs used to make "Luzon kris" as well, there are surviving samples from Batangas province. Kris is also one of the blades documented on the 1917 ethnographic paper of weapons and tools from Taal. Unfortunately, the tradition of forging long blades including kris in Batangas is pretty much dead, they only make balisong nowadays.

I also wanna share this modern "Luzon kris" from Tagalog region, but from Rizal instead. I'm not sure if it's indeed a successor of the older Luzon kris, or a modern acculturation, I suppose the latter. But there are still some features distinct from their Moro counterparts.

[Rafngard]

Here's two of my non-Moro Kris.

The larger one has been estimated by another group member to be WWII era, and is clearly from Luzon

The smaller one has been discussed here before. It has elements that look Visayan (the scabbard with sheets of Carabao horn, the lack of a peened tang), and elements that look like Luzon.

Have fun,
Leif

[David]

I have to say that i don't agree that any of these flamberge should be referred to a "kris". Regardless of spelling, a kris/keris/cris/etc is an asymmetric blade with a gonjo/gangya/etc, not simply any weapon with a wavy blade. I don't know what these northern swords with wavy blades are called within their cultures of origin, but somehow i doubt they called them "kris". Nor do i think it is necessary that these Northern Philippines swords needed to be made by Moro smiths.

[chmorshuutz]

Originally Posted by David

I have to say that i don't agree that any of these flamberge should be referred to a "kris". Regardless of spelling, a kris/keris/cris/etc is an asymmetric blade with a gonjo/gangya/etc, not simply any weapon with a wavy blade. I don't know what these northern swords with wavy blades are called within their cultures of origin, but somehow i doubt they called them "kris". Nor do i think it is necessary that these Northern Philippines swords needed to be made by Moro smiths.

Thesea are also called "kris" in non-Moro areas of Philippines too, at least as early as 1917. But I'm not sure if the older ones are referred as such, but there's a possibility since trade with Sultanates in Mindanao and Spanish Philippines did happen.

Some languages in Luzon (i.e. Tagalog) did use the term "kalis" (the term Moros used as well) as evidenced in 17th century Vocabulario de la Lengua Tagala. But as to what happened to kalis in the Christianized areas, it was never specified nor its connection with the non-Moro kris clearly established. The whole information and history about these non-Moro kris were quite murky.

[efrahjalt]

It appears from the examples posted and others that the handle may not be original. It doesn't seem to conform well to any forms associated with the blade type. There are some similarities to a few blades I have seen, but they are pretty distant. Here are some of the examples I'm referring to (first two images). They have a distantly similar pommel swell, and line motifs, but it's a bit of a stretch. The materials used also make me question as they also seems atypical for these blades. The handle appears to be made of 4 materials: aluminum, stacked leather, phenolic, and some kind dense hardwood or possibly another resin product similar to phenolic. The materials seem to all be very robust and completely solid in construction, so there is quality there, but they just seem off. Perhaps a bring back from the Spanish American war that was re-hilted?

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks for bringing up that old thread. I agree that a northern Luzon origin is a distinct possibility. However, as you will see from the comments of Battara in that thread, there are/were Moro craftsmen in northern Luzon/Ilocos Norte also. The example that I showed in that thread (post no. 14) lacks a central ridge to the blade.

Ian, Please tell me more about the significance of the central ridge.

[David]

Originally Posted by chmorshuutz

Thesea are also called "kris" in non-Moro areas of Philippines too, at least as early as 1917. But I'm not sure if the older ones are referred as such, but there's a possibility since trade with Sultanates in Mindanao and Spanish Philippines did happen.

Some languages in Luzon (i.e. Tagalog) did use the term "kalis" (the term Moros used as well) as evidenced in 17th century Vocabulario de la Lengua Tagala. But as to what happened to kalis in the Christianized areas, it was never specified nor its connection with the non-Moro kris clearly established. The whole information and history about these non-Moro kris were quite murky.

Frankly i am not sure that "kris" is even a word that had much indigenous use at all even with Moro blades. Each Moro tribe has it's own terminology for what we call the kris. But the Moro kris is obviously derived from it's Indonesian cousin. It is larger and became a slashing rather than a stabbing weapon, but the parts are in the same form. Asymmetrical blade (either straight or wavy) and a separate "guard" piece (gonjo or gangya). A keris/keris is not determined by a wavy blade and i believe that calling everything with a wavy blade a kris is a bit of a misnomer. I am sure that these wavy blades from Luzon and other northern Philippines areas had a local name at some time that was not simply "kris".