A Flamberge Sword For Comments

chmorshuutz · 22nd January 2022, 10:47 AM

Reminds me of those kris from Luzon and Visayas, those are much pointier than their Moro counterparts. Then there's also the absence of typical gangya found in Moro kalis, instead it uses the guard similar to Luzon/Visayan kris.

kai · 22nd January 2022, 11:46 AM

I agree: This blade doesn't look like Moro craftsmanship - much more likely one of the northern look-alikes. Only the slanted base is unusual...

Regards,
Kai

efrahjalt · 22nd January 2022, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chmorshuutz

Reminds me of those kris from Luzon and Visayas, those are much pointier than their Moro counterparts. Then there's also the absence of typical gangya found in Moro kalis, instead it uses the guard similar to Luzon/Visayan kris.

I think you may be onto something with the Luzon Kris idea. I did some quick searching and there are definitely some more similarities - longer blades, more luk (thanks for that term Ian), similar guards, straight grips etc. Have a look at the examples in this older post I found while searching:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15997

Ian · 22nd January 2022, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by efrahjalt

I think you may be onto something with the Luzon Kris idea. I did some quick searching and there are definitely some more similarities - longer blades, more luk (thanks for that term Ian), similar guards, straight grips etc. Have a look at the examples in this older post I found while searching:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15997

efrajait,

Thanks for bringing up that old thread. I agree that a northern Luzon origin is a distinct possibility. However, as you will see from the comments of Battara in that thread, there are/were Moro craftsmen in northern Luzon/Ilocos Norte also. The example that I showed in that thread (post no. 14) lacks a central ridge to the blade.

Battara · 22nd January 2022, 09:46 PM

I have also been recently informed that Tagalogs also made wavy blades as well.

kai · 23rd January 2022, 11:52 AM

Hello Ian,

Quote:

I agree that a northern Luzon origin is a distinct possibility. However, as you will see from the comments of Battara in that thread, there are/were Moro craftsmen in northern Luzon/Ilocos Norte also.

Yes, although by the time this blade got forged they most likely got acculturated (or left for good).

Note that for example the tip is distinct from what you see in genuine Moro blades (and size is often longer, too). There are enough wavy blades throughout the Christian part of the Philippines and there seems to be no reason why we need to attribute pieces like this to Moro bladesmiths (as opposed to just cultural ideas getting picked up by neighbouring communities).

I bet that the tang of this blade is not a typical Moro tang either...

Regards,
Kai

chmorshuutz · 23rd January 2022, 01:00 PM

Yes, Tagalogs used to make "Luzon kris" as well, there are surviving samples from Batangas province. Kris is also one of the blades documented on the 1917 ethnographic paper of weapons and tools from Taal. Unfortunately, the tradition of forging long blades including kris in Batangas is pretty much dead, they only make balisong nowadays.

I also wanna share this modern "Luzon kris" from Tagalog region, but from Rizal instead. I'm not sure if it's indeed a successor of the older Luzon kris, or a modern acculturation, I suppose the latter. But there are still some features distinct from their Moro counterparts.

Rafngard · 24th January 2022, 07:47 PM

Here's two of my non-Moro Kris.

The larger one has been estimated by another group member to be WWII era, and is clearly from Luzon

The smaller one has been discussed here before. It has elements that look Visayan (the scabbard with sheets of Carabao horn, the lack of a peened tang), and elements that look like Luzon.

Have fun,
Leif

David · 26th January 2022, 02:31 PM

I have to say that i don't agree that any of these flamberge should be referred to a "kris". Regardless of spelling, a kris/keris/cris/etc is an asymmetric blade with a gonjo/gangya/etc, not simply any weapon with a wavy blade. I don't know what these northern swords with wavy blades are called within their cultures of origin, but somehow i doubt they called them "kris". Nor do i think it is necessary that these Northern Philippines swords needed to be made by Moro smiths.

23rd January 2022, 01:00 PM	#7
chmorshuutz Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 57	Yes, Tagalogs used to make "Luzon kris" as well, there are surviving samples from Batangas province. Kris is also one of the blades documented on the 1917 ethnographic paper of weapons and tools from Taal. Unfortunately, the tradition of forging long blades including kris in Batangas is pretty much dead, they only make balisong nowadays. I also wanna share this modern "Luzon kris" from Tagalog region, but from Rizal instead. I'm not sure if it's indeed a successor of the older Luzon kris, or a modern acculturation, I suppose the latter. But there are still some features distinct from their Moro counterparts. Attached Images

24th January 2022, 07:47 PM	#8
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 348	As long as we're sharing... Here's two of my non-Moro Kris. The larger one has been estimated by another group member to be WWII era, and is clearly from Luzon The smaller one has been discussed here before. It has elements that look Visayan (the scabbard with sheets of Carabao horn, the lack of a peened tang), and elements that look like Luzon. Have fun, Leif Attached Images

22nd January 2022, 10:47 AM	#1
chmorshuutz Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 57	Reminds me of those kris from Luzon and Visayas, those are much pointier than their Moro counterparts. Then there's also the absence of typical gangya found in Moro kalis, instead it uses the guard similar to Luzon/Visayan kris.

22nd January 2022, 11:46 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	I agree: This blade doesn't look like Moro craftsmanship - much more likely one of the northern look-alikes. Only the slanted base is unusual... Regards, Kai

22nd January 2022, 09:46 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I have also been recently informed that Tagalogs also made wavy blades as well.

26th January 2022, 02:31 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I have to say that i don't agree that any of these flamberge should be referred to a "kris". Regardless of spelling, a kris/keris/cris/etc is an asymmetric blade with a gonjo/gangya/etc, not simply any weapon with a wavy blade. I don't know what these northern swords with wavy blades are called within their cultures of origin, but somehow i doubt they called them "kris". Nor do i think it is necessary that these Northern Philippines swords needed to be made by Moro smiths.