four foot rapier blades ???

[urbanspaceman]

My sincere apologies, how careless.

[Peter Hudson]

Nice to see you on the page here Keith and I recall seeing this detail on your general page on Shotley Bridge Swords.
Dress at court was developing into a shortened jacket. Few people realise that the length of blade was more to do with fashion... As jackets became shorter so did blades. Your document also reveals the term hollows being used instead of the later term fullers.
We are so fortunate in having your input on Shotley Bridge since there is not one shred of remaining detail left standing on any artefact or building relating to the swordmakers except the existence of a local pub ...The Crown and Crossed Swords. In fact the same emblem of the crown and crossed swords was also used by the local maternity hospital The Richard Murray where I was born! I also spent a few years growing up in Shotley Bridge and at one time I lived actually in Wood Street but demolition had started by the time I was about 8 years old.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

My sincere apologies, how careless.

No problem ... at all .
I wouldn't think that, the reduction of swords length in connection with fashion issues, was already in place by the time of these early rapiers.
When we consider such extremely lengthy 'off mark' swords, for as tall as the owner was, would be a challenging task to carry them around in a 'conventinal' manner. I can imagine a servant carrying it for his master to go meet someone for a duel.

[Richard G]

It would be interesting to know if the tang was included. I believe the British Pattern 1908 Cavalry Sword was 42 inches overall.
Best wishes
Richard

[fernando]

The grip (tang) and pommel were included in the 5 palms (spans) law; inequivocal. This is circa 43.3".
As are included in the 'off mark' 7 palms rapiers critical length.


.

[urbanspaceman]

I understand that estocs (or 'tucks') were usually in excess of four feet.
As a matter of note, two points here:
first, there were estocs produced in this country in the 14th century that featured a three or four edged hollowed blade that was decidedly akin to the trefoil smallswords of the 17th and 18th century.
Secondly, they were made by hammering pre-formed stock into a die cut into the top of the anvil: same as was used much later for Brown Bess bayonets..
The tool that was used to shape the upper hollows was called a 'fuller' which, of course, gave rise to the term being used to describe the hollow.
I will take a guess here and suggest the hollow was originally described as 'fullered'.

Peter! Greetings my friend... and of course to you Jim... I hope all is well with you both.
You realise that you are a rare living legend Peter: having lived in Wood Street.
The BBC history department have me on their radar for a documentary, so I will certainly be pointing them in your direction for first-hand input.

Fernando: letters? I can see the link. Any advance on letters?

[ulfberth]

Thank you for posting this!
Rapier lengths can vary from 110 cm to 150 cm.
I had a rapier of 145 cm that is complete length and you could handle it like a small sword, the blade section was diamond shape and the tip was a spatula tip.

[urbanspaceman]

So: I got some swords down from the wall to experience simulated combat usage (see pics below).

The first was a typical smallsword with an 80cm blade (I am measuring up to the start of the hilt; I am not including the hilt in the measurement) with a trefoil blade.
It handles exactly the way every description I have seen suggests i.e. very fast and delicate.

Then I tried a typical Portuguese slim bladed rapier of 100cms. It has been re-hilted with a court-sword hilt of very large proportions. If I was up against a practised smallsword opponent I would be struggling to match move for move but then I am not a swordsman in any shape or form so this is a layman's attempt to understand length and weight.

Finally, I have a City Guard northern Italian swept hilt rapier that has a relatively narrow blade, probably typical of the late 1500s and a good bit broader and heavier than the Portuguese blade, but of course it has a substantial guard to balance the blade. Even so, I am certain a smallsword could get past it very quickly and easily.

Anyway: I do not understand how you can manipulate such a long blade (145cm: even if that includes the hilt) so effectively, but maybe if I was a seasoned fencer with experience of such a blade it might be obvious.
ps
I may be a layman, but I have been a rock drummer all my life and have very strong wrists and etc. so I am not completely useless.
pps. pics are not to scale