Small sword identification

[Kubur]

So no one has an idea about the origin and date of this sword?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

So no one has an idea about the origin and date of this sword?

Since this is apparently an officers sword (clearly 1780s-90s) but while following the conventions and styles of the time, and does not fall into a specific category in pattern book...........we have to evaluate other comparable sword types and their elements.

Since the heart, on what appears to be a horn grip, is most unusual as a decoration, we try to see where, or who, might have used that symbol in this manner.

When I noted that other 'spadroon' type swords of this period sometimes had openwork guards, I mentioned the 'heart' on one of those. Since it was c. 1790s and English as well, that would suggest probable English origin for this sword in assumption.

When the Scottish possibility was mentioned, that clearly while British, is an entirely separate sphere in the symbols as decorations in many, if not most, cases.
Here I noted that the heart, was a Jacobite symbol (1715, 1745 uprisings et al) and that that particular association surely still existed.

So aside from well established and uncompromised provenance (proof), or an exact match in some reference or record, not being available......all I can do is try to surmise, based on evidence available as cited,

so, no, I have no idea of origin and date.
This is a dilemma often occurring on weapons which are not specifically engraved with dates, names, places and which have fallen out of context after sometimes hundreds of years

Sorry the evidence shown is not of more use. Of course perhaps, as noted, Fernando will have more insight.

[Hotspur]

Heart

Chalice

Catholic


Hearts/Cups Royalty/Church
Spades/Swords Military
Diamonds/Pentacles/Coins Guilds/Merchants
Clubs/Wands Peasants/Labor

I'm not sure how one goes from something on a grip to counterguards and what we may see. We do see hearts from time to time. We'd like to list them as all from one source but it's just not really that simple. Of course, my favorite inset for a counterguard is something entirely different.


Cheers
GC

[M ELEY]

Just chiming in with everyone else that this is a spadrron-type, European/probably UK. I post this one only to show the folding back guard (yours appears to be missing) on the m1786 pattern. I think the issue with these types is similar to NCO swords. There appears to be room for variation depending on branch, rank, specialty, etc.



http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12970.html

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Just chiming in with everyone else that this is a spadrron-type, European/probably UK. I post this one only to show the folding back guard (yours appears to be missing) on the m1786 pattern. I think the issue with these types is similar to NCO swords. There appears to be room for variation depending on branch, rank, specialty, etc.

Thank you Eley
I think you nailed it. Yes, a piece is missing and then confirms the date and identification.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Just chiming in with everyone else that this is a spadrron-type, European/probably UK. I post this one only to show the folding back guard (yours appears to be missing) on the m1786 pattern. I think the issue with these types is similar to NCO swords. There appears to be room for variation depending on branch, rank, specialty, etc.



http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12970.html

Capn, thank you for noticing this!!!! I totally missed the fixtures for that which is obviously missing. bonk!

[fernando]

How could i be so blind that didn't figure out that those 'studs' are the hinges for a folding guard. To my defence, i was betrayed by the angle of the picture . Actually, i have even discussed these features a few years ago over my (ex) pattern 1806 Portuguese Cavalry officers sword.
OTOH, for what i knew of Spadroons (Espadões) from a local fellow collector, i would never realize Kubur's sword is also one of the kind.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

How could i be so blind that didn't figure out that those 'studs' are the hinges for a folding guard. To my defence, i was betrayed by the angle of the picture . Actually, i have even discussed these features a few years ago over my (ex) pattern 1806 Portuguese Cavalry officers sword.
OTOH, for what i knew of Spadroons (Espadões) from a local fellow collector, i would never realize Kubur's sword is also one of the kind.


.

Well, that makes two of us Fernando! I didnt notice them at all, and I only knew of the 'spadroon's' from the 1786 pattern (which I had forgotten as well, good thing the Capn is aboard!) which I know only as c. 1790s in studying the five ball hilt aboout a zillion years ago.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Heart
Chalice
Catholic
I'm not sure how one goes from something on a grip to counterguards and what we may see. We do see hearts from time to time. We'd like to list them as all from one source but it's just not really that simple. Of course, my favorite inset for a counterguard is something entirely different.
GC

Thank you GC
Heart = Catholic was something that I had in mind since the beginning.
So maybe Scottish or Irish...
I was thinking that it was a regular sword and then easy to identify precisely because of the hearth.
Your examples with hearths on counterguards are very interesting and again the same period roughtly.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

so, no, I have no idea of origin and date.
This is a dilemma often occurring on weapons which are not specifically engraved with dates, names, places and which have fallen out of context after sometimes hundreds of years
Sorry the evidence shown is not of more use. Of course perhaps, as noted, Fernando will have more insight.

Sorry Jim to be a bit pushy and again thank you for your help!
Yes, you gave a fantastic frame and I'm now convinced that we are talking of the late 18th c. I was just thinking that the grip/hilt was typical enough to be identified but as you said we have variations.
I was hoping that Fernando will have more information's.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Kubur

... I was hoping that Fernando will have more information's...

No, i am deeply sorry, but i don't have the faintest idea of what your sword is, nor where it comes from. Which is no surprise; with my residual knwkledge, it would have to be a piece screaming to me, with highly recognizable details ... which is not the case of this 'different example'. I have asked you to show us a picture of the whole sword, as this is the usual procedure, both for the record and for making it easy to identify in context.
And for speakping of that, there is one more picture which would be most interesting for us to have a look; one facing the front of the guard, so that we can check on details like those two 'fixation studs', as if the front is a 'detachable' part ?


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Sorry Jim to be a bit pushy and again thank you for your help!
Yes, you gave a fantastic frame and I'm now convinced that we are talking of the late 18th c. I was just thinking that the grip/hilt was typical enough to be identified but as you said we have variations.
I was hoping that Fernando will have more information's.

Thank you Kubur.