The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:54 PM

Old 13th March 2016, 12:20 PM #272

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
I recently had the opportunity to acquire a sword for my collection. I have been unable to identify the marks on the blade. I was told it was German, but some research also points to Sumarian. I have checked all of the entries in this thread, and some of the other threads as well, but have still come up short. Does anyone have an idea of the origins of these marks? (Quote)

Salaams joyfulkitten, Whilst the three obvious marks appear to be sun, moon and stars there is a suggestion of something theatrical in this sword...not least the odd hilt.
What part do you suggest has Sumerian link?... The vaguely anchor shaped mark ?..perhaps that is where you link Sumerian since dagger hilts were roughly that shape but it is not something I would rely upon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:54 PM

Old 13th March 2016, 03:57 PM #273

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi JK,
I see you have done some most interesting research on this unusual item, and am most curious as well on the Sumerian association. Other than the extremely ancient Mesopotamian civilization , or the Cimmerians who lived much later, I think only of the well known movies of 'Conan the Barbarian'.
While the 'theatrical nature' of this item seems well placed, it does not seem to correspond to props in that film.

The markings are indeed a most interesting mélange of some used in various contexts by German makers of 17th and 18th centuries A.D.
I think the 'anchor' type mark resembles similar seen on blades from Valencia, Spain in the 16th into 17th c. A.D.
The sun and moon were cosmological symbols used on blades in Germany and East Europe in the 17th-18th c. as mentioned.
The stars were added embellishments in these contexts.
The grouping of these symbols, while not particularly well executed, seems most interesting on a theatrical sword as these kinds of details are not usually added.

You noted that this item was added to your collection, may I ask what type of swords or edged weapons do you collect?
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:55 PM

Old 13th March 2016, 05:34 PM #274

Posred by:
kronckew
Member

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101,
Glos. UK

i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip

i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience.

again, more pics would help.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:55 PM

Old 13th March 2016, 08:49 PM #275

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by kronckew
i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip

i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience.

again, more pics would help. (Quote)

It is true that in the theater, often old blades could be dolled up for use by adding more appropriate hilts. Optimistically we might hope that to be the case here, but quite honestly these markings do not seem in character with blades regularly seen in trade or colonial native circumstances.

It is often amazing how often artifacts with weapons in particular have been presumed of earlier periods, but later determined to be such stage creations.

Interestingly, in California, the old movie studios in their labyrinths of sets, props and costumes often warehoused these from silent film days into the 1980s. When they 'decaccessed' these it was amazing how many actual early weapons were used in these films. This is likely the reason that Rudolph Valentino was an avid sword collector (not sure of others) as these were so available to him.

Alternatively, often times old swords either intact or refurbished became ceremonial or Tyler's sword in Freemason lodges.

Always lots of possibilities, and as noted, from photos it is really difficult to determine more so other views would help.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:56 PM

Old 14th March 2016, 01:44 AM #276

Posted by.
joyfulkitten
Member

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Washington State, USA

Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination.
I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for?
I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:56 PM

Old 14th March 2016, 09:48 AM #277

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination.
I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for?
I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote)

Salaams JK, I see what you mean and show a Sumerian dagger hilt. I suggest that this likeness in the blade stamp is purely co incidental and posit that the theatrical nature of the weapon is more likely.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:56 PM

Old 14th March 2016, 11:40 AM #278

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
... I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote)

If you don't know of any resizing programs, like this one:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...ppowertoys.mspx

You may exceptionally send the pictures to me and i will resize them and upload them for you.
fernando@vikingsword.com
.

19th October 2017, 03:54 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th March 2016, 12:20 PM #272 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by joyfulkitten I recently had the opportunity to acquire a sword for my collection. I have been unable to identify the marks on the blade. I was told it was German, but some research also points to Sumarian. I have checked all of the entries in this thread, and some of the other threads as well, but have still come up short. Does anyone have an idea of the origins of these marks? (Quote) Salaams joyfulkitten, Whilst the three obvious marks appear to be sun, moon and stars there is a suggestion of something theatrical in this sword...not least the odd hilt. What part do you suggest has Sumerian link?... The vaguely anchor shaped mark ?..perhaps that is where you link Sumerian since dagger hilts were roughly that shape but it is not something I would rely upon. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:35 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:55 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th March 2016, 05:34 PM #274 Posred by: kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience. again, more pics would help. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:37 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:55 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 13th March 2016, 08:49 PM #275 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by kronckew i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience. again, more pics would help. (Quote) It is true that in the theater, often old blades could be dolled up for use by adding more appropriate hilts. Optimistically we might hope that to be the case here, but quite honestly these markings do not seem in character with blades regularly seen in trade or colonial native circumstances. It is often amazing how often artifacts with weapons in particular have been presumed of earlier periods, but later determined to be such stage creations. Interestingly, in California, the old movie studios in their labyrinths of sets, props and costumes often warehoused these from silent film days into the 1980s. When they 'decaccessed' these it was amazing how many actual early weapons were used in these films. This is likely the reason that Rudolph Valentino was an avid sword collector (not sure of others) as these were so available to him. Alternatively, often times old swords either intact or refurbished became ceremonial or Tyler's sword in Freemason lodges. Always lots of possibilities, and as noted, from photos it is really difficult to determine more so other views would help. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:38 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:56 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 14th March 2016, 01:44 AM #276 Posted by. joyfulkitten Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Washington State, USA Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination. I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for? I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 04:39 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:56 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 14th March 2016, 09:48 AM #277 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by joyfulkitten Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination. I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for? I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote) Salaams JK, I see what you mean and show a Sumerian dagger hilt. I suggest that this likeness in the blade stamp is purely co incidental and posit that the theatrical nature of the weapon is more likely. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:29 PM.