The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:05 PM

Old 25th November 2007, 05:07 PM

Posted by.
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff D
... He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile ... (Quote)

Small world

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:05 PM

Old 25th November 2007, 08:34 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

There are several on Danish military white weapons from 1600 to about 1750, from then on they seem to be more royal markings.

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fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:06 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 03:04 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Fernando,
Thank you for posting this terrific 'sail' hilt and for again the great detail on the markings! I appreciate the data on the orb and cross and the cross of the Order of Aviz. I think it is interesting how the cross and orb and other forms of cross are often used at the beginning or terminus of fullers or to open and close inscriptions, almost like 'talismanic punctuation' !

Marc, its really good to see you here! I was hoping you might join in as your input here would really help with what we are trying to put together. I also appreciate you and Fernando confirming that the 'motto' is indeed in Spanish. Is the Castillian really much different than other dialects, and of course I understand that Portuguese has considerable differences.

Jeff, JUDL! good runnin' with Carlin's cigar axiom!!!
The Hounslow swords from England were indeed often marked with the ME FECIT SOLINGEN line typically along with the makers name, most notable Iohannes Hoppe. Some only carried the running wolf, and some of these instances carried into the later German enterprise at Shotley Bridge, but I dont think those used the ME FECIT. Eljay's knowledge on the 17th and 18th century European swords is outstanding to say the least!

Jens,
Thank you so much for adding the note on the Danish swords. Are the markings seen on these 17th to 18th century swords indicative of Solingen make similar to these ? There is so little discussed on the Danish weapons but they certainly must have used the German blades also. I wonder how many of these blades ended up in India with the trade factories established by Denmark there.

All very best regards,
Jim
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:06 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 05:04 AM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
A great reference book

Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!!
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:07 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 11:46 AM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Hi Jim,

In Danske Blankvaaben by Kay S. Nielsen, Forlaget Sixtus, 1978. Resume in German at the back of the book.

Around 1600. In the fuller inlaid with copper ME FECIT SOLINGEN

Around 1610. CLEMENS MEIGENN inlaid with copper.

Around 1680. In each of the four fullers IHESUS inlaid with copper.

Around 1700. Crescent and three stars on both sides.

Around 1700. On both sides sun, crescent, stars and an arm with a sword.

Around 1708. XX IN X MINI XX on both sides, in the fuller.

On many of them you can see the king�s monogram and a crown as well.
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:07 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 12:25 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!! (Quote)

But of course, Gavin!
How was i so blind
Although the work comprehends a study on Plug bayonets and their so called cuttlers, i guess most marking material is just the same, as also such makers come to be the same who made sword blades.
As you say, there are zillions of marks on the ilustrated examples. It would be nice if you volunteer to scan some of them, specially those that appear to be common to the sword theme ... you were the one that came up first with the idea
You have for instance a symbol that appears to be popular around, as it is shown in Italian and British examples: the anchor ... yes Jim, that's the name ( at least ) used by Evans.
This is to coincide with the mark applied to a piece i was about to post here, after checking its viability with Jim. This because the piece is a sword stick, not so much apreciated by some, but with an interesting blade, which i will first let Jim to make his expertized coments about. If some further detail needed, i will secondarize with the respective info ... if i can
This will confirm that the anchor symbol was assigned to several Masters as, besides Italian and British, it also appears in Portuguese blades ... or Spanish ... or both. Jim has comented that this symbol doesn't appear on the famous Tomas Ayala blades. In this case, the nice example i saw yesterday being discussed in a determined Forum ( i think i lost it ) was a fake ... which is quite frequent, although in this case the blade was very well forged, i would say worthy of a master.
All the best.
Fernando
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fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:08 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 06:09 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hello Freebooter! and thank you for coming in with us on this important and developing work on trade blades and thier inscriptions and marks. You are 100% right, the book by Evans is a goldmine on markings, and I had forgotten that great resource, which I unfortunately do not presently have access to.
He is indeed a terrific researcher, and I remember communicating with him for some time years before he wrote his fantastic book, when he was writing a periodical article titled "Cold Steel". Each bayonet he focused on typically included markings etc. but the plug bayonets, his personal favorite, were of course the examples that carried contemporary detail, and eventually led to the book.

Fernando thank you for adding to the notes on this important resource. I think that possibly posting illustrations of the particular examples being discussed from the Evans book would be outstanding (I gotta work on getting my copy back!!!) and Freebooter, it would be so very much appreciated if you could help with these!!

Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though.

Thank you very much Fernando, for posting that great blade, which gives us a good view of these often exported rapier blades (Excellent close ups on these markings BTW ! It is important to note the serifs on the letters which emphasize the lettering style...and is that a cross near the ricasso?).It seems these were actually even exported after they had essentially become obsolete with the advent of the shorter, heavier smallsword blades in the 18th century. It is known of course, that Spain held strongly to thier sword traditions for much longer than many countries, as thier superb swordsmen maintained that tradition. It is puzzling though as it seems the cuphilt swords that were mounted in the colonies and Caribbean usually had the much heavier broadsword blades, rather than the rapier blades. Possibly the officers looked for replacement blades for thier swords ?

I hope we will see more examples of this 'anchor' marking that seem to occur usually near the fuller, particularly those with central fullers as broadswords and rapiers.

Thank you Jens for adding those Danish examples from the book! It does show that the German blades were used quite widely. If I am not mistaken, German swordsmiths even went to open workshops in Sweden, Russia as well as England as has been noted with Hounslow and Shotley Bridge. I am not sure if they went to Denmark.

Thank you so much guys for these latest entries!

All best regards,
Jim
.

18th October 2017, 06:05 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,668	Old 25th November 2007, 05:07 PM Posted by. fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff D ... He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile ... (Quote) Small world . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:34 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:05 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,668	Old 25th November 2007, 08:34 PM Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe There are several on Danish military white weapons from 1600 to about 1750, from then on they seem to be more royal markings. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:35 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:06 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,668	Old 26th November 2007, 03:04 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Fernando, Thank you for posting this terrific 'sail' hilt and for again the great detail on the markings! I appreciate the data on the orb and cross and the cross of the Order of Aviz. I think it is interesting how the cross and orb and other forms of cross are often used at the beginning or terminus of fullers or to open and close inscriptions, almost like 'talismanic punctuation' ! Marc, its really good to see you here! I was hoping you might join in as your input here would really help with what we are trying to put together. I also appreciate you and Fernando confirming that the 'motto' is indeed in Spanish. Is the Castillian really much different than other dialects, and of course I understand that Portuguese has considerable differences. Jeff, JUDL! good runnin' with Carlin's cigar axiom!!! The Hounslow swords from England were indeed often marked with the ME FECIT SOLINGEN line typically along with the makers name, most notable Iohannes Hoppe. Some only carried the running wolf, and some of these instances carried into the later German enterprise at Shotley Bridge, but I dont think those used the ME FECIT. Eljay's knowledge on the 17th and 18th century European swords is outstanding to say the least! Jens, Thank you so much for adding the note on the Danish swords. Are the markings seen on these 17th to 18th century swords indicative of Solingen make similar to these ? There is so little discussed on the Danish weapons but they certainly must have used the German blades also. I wonder how many of these blades ended up in India with the trade factories established by Denmark there. All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:36 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:06 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,668	Old 26th November 2007, 05:04 AM Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 A great reference book Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!! . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:37 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:07 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,668	Old 26th November 2007, 11:46 AM Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Hi Jim, In Danske Blankvaaben by Kay S. Nielsen, Forlaget Sixtus, 1978. Resume in German at the back of the book. Around 1600. In the fuller inlaid with copper ME FECIT SOLINGEN Around 1610. CLEMENS MEIGENN inlaid with copper. Around 1680. In each of the four fullers IHESUS inlaid with copper. Around 1700. Crescent and three stars on both sides. Around 1700. On both sides sun, crescent, stars and an arm with a sword. Around 1708. XX IN X MINI XX on both sides, in the fuller. On many of them you can see the king�s monogram and a crown as well. . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:38 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:08 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,668	Old 26th November 2007, 06:09 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hello Freebooter! and thank you for coming in with us on this important and developing work on trade blades and thier inscriptions and marks. You are 100% right, the book by Evans is a goldmine on markings, and I had forgotten that great resource, which I unfortunately do not presently have access to. He is indeed a terrific researcher, and I remember communicating with him for some time years before he wrote his fantastic book, when he was writing a periodical article titled "Cold Steel". Each bayonet he focused on typically included markings etc. but the plug bayonets, his personal favorite, were of course the examples that carried contemporary detail, and eventually led to the book. Fernando thank you for adding to the notes on this important resource. I think that possibly posting illustrations of the particular examples being discussed from the Evans book would be outstanding (I gotta work on getting my copy back!!!) and Freebooter, it would be so very much appreciated if you could help with these!! Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though. Thank you very much Fernando, for posting that great blade, which gives us a good view of these often exported rapier blades (Excellent close ups on these markings BTW ! It is important to note the serifs on the letters which emphasize the lettering style...and is that a cross near the ricasso?).It seems these were actually even exported after they had essentially become obsolete with the advent of the shorter, heavier smallsword blades in the 18th century. It is known of course, that Spain held strongly to thier sword traditions for much longer than many countries, as thier superb swordsmen maintained that tradition. It is puzzling though as it seems the cuphilt swords that were mounted in the colonies and Caribbean usually had the much heavier broadsword blades, rather than the rapier blades. Possibly the officers looked for replacement blades for thier swords ? I hope we will see more examples of this 'anchor' marking that seem to occur usually near the fuller, particularly those with central fullers as broadswords and rapiers. Thank you Jens for adding those Danish examples from the book! It does show that the German blades were used quite widely. If I am not mistaken, German swordsmiths even went to open workshops in Sweden, Russia as well as England as has been noted with Hounslow and Shotley Bridge. I am not sure if they went to Denmark. Thank you so much guys for these latest entries! All best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:40 PM.