Classifying shashka--a serious discussion of typology

[Gavin Nugent]

I am all for study and collation of information, but why does a sword type need to be specifically put in a box with another and then fall under that swords name...

what's in a name?

What's with the name game?

Does this name game improve the character and pedigree of a sword, I think not!

Shall now the Sasanian guardless swords of the Neo Persian empire, whose lands that these swords being classified were once theirs, now be called Shashka too...

It's over complicating things...

Gavin

[ariel]

Gavin,
Yes and no.
Correct naming gives us immediate idea of he origin, of belonging to a particular family and separating from visually similar objects.
Dolphins and bats are classified together as mammals, even though they look like fishes or birds.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Gavin,
Yes and no.
Correct naming gives us immediate idea of he origin, of belonging to a particular family and separating from visually similar objects.
Dolphins and bats are classified together as mammals, even though they look like fishes or birds.

With consideration to the a large area that these swords are found in, it is and was a Persian speaking region, correct naming would make them a "Shamshir"...how muddy does that make the waters with names and what is generally accepted about the word shamshir and its accepted form.

With regards to this threads topic, and the mammal analagy, they are all Sabres (from a very long line of guardless sabres), they fall in to a category of all being without guards, they then fall in to a known locality within a specific time/period, for which specific cultural features are then noted...this does not then lead to the name game for clarity....however, if one must insist on a name, from a logical perspective, it is Shamshir....the name game does not help here.

Whilst it is generally agreed that the Caucasian sword of this type is called a Shashka (with no arguement from me), with consideration to the 25 something ethnic groups within this region, how many different names for the same swords would be found...IMHO, trying to make a name stick is often counter productive vs a simple classification of "type/ location/period/features".

Gavin

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Gavin,
Yes and no.
Correct naming gives us immediate idea of he origin, of belonging to a particular family and separating from visually similar objects.
Dolphins and bats are classified together as mammals, even though they look like fishes or birds.

Names are very important when it comes to internet search engines, without an item being "tagged" it may never be found. Like it or not, categorization is important, what name you use determines whether or not you can bring up the images you are looking for online.

[ariel]

Seems to me that we are once again moving into the morass of name game:-))

But in addition of search engines we are talking about a common language,
We can make it misleading or informative, we can in a single word give a general idea of "what we are talking about", we can attribute weapon's origin or its place of habitation.

Or we can invent a new, wrong, name, and create a non-existing entity ( Karud becoming a "not-Pesh Kabz) Or assign a name belonging to a different class of objects altogether and lose the specificity of the object in question ( Kris is a small Flamberge).

Here is an example of parallel development I was talking about: a Central-European Kord or Bauernwehr flanked by two Afghani Khybers. The blades are virtually interchangeable, but the origins and the dating cannot be farther apart.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ariel

Seems to me that we are once again moving into the morass of name game:-))

But in addition of search engines we are talking about a common language,
We can make it misleading or informative, we can in a single word give a general idea of "what we are talking about", we can attribute weapon's origin or its place of habitation.

Or we can invent a new, wrong, name, and create a non-existing entity ( Karud becoming a "not-Pesh Kabz) Or assign a name belonging to a different class of objects altogether and lose the specificity of the object in question ( Kris is a small Flamberge).

Here is an example of parallel development I was talking about: a Central-European Kord or Bauernwehr flanked by two Afghani Khybers. The blades are virtually interchangeable, but the origins and the dating cannot be farther apart.

Hello Ariel,

Yet, after reading all these arguments it seems that the Afghan Shashka is indeed related, to the original Circasian shashka, as it was inspired by it, albeit at a later time (see also the posting of AJ1356). So your examples about similar blades that developed independently are not that relevant since the Afghan Shashka did not develop independently from the Circasian one (like the Bauenwehr developed independently from the Khyber sword).

Then, why not call it simply "Afghan Shashka?" This way it will be clear that while being a Shashka, as it has if not all, most the features of the Shashka, it is a particular variety, adopted by the Afghans at a latter date. Also this way there will be no possibility of confusion between the Afghan variety and the Bukharan sabre since the name will locate it geographically without the ambiguity related to the other proposed prefixes, like the "pseudo" (yes, it is a pseudo-shashka but from where?!)

Something like the same way we say Ottoman Shamshir and we then know we may have a classic shamshir blade with a typical Turkish/Ottoman pistol grip.

Am I missing something?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Yet, after reading all these arguments it seems that the Afghan Shashka is indeed related, to the original Circasian shashka, as it was inspired by it, albeit at a later time (see also the posting of AJ1356)........................................... .........................why not call it simply "Afghan Shashka?" This way it will be clear that while being a Shashka, as it has if not all, most the features of the Shashka, it is a particular variety, adopted by the Afghans at a latter date.

If there is some certainty that the Afghan shashka is a shashka this would be a good name solution all around.

[ariel]

Guys,
Everybody is free to call it any way one wants. I based my view on its original roots ( with Cossack overlays coming later on), you suggest stressing its final incarnation, similar to AJ1356's grandmother. It is the matter from what angle we want to look at it. As long as we all know what we are talking about and understand its convoluted history.