Corrosion on gilded keris blade

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, fire gilding was used, and maybe still is used. There was an old bloke in Solo who was doing it up until a few years ago I don't know if he still is.

Kinatah work has several levels of quality, and I doubt that I know them all.

Probably the very best is the method where the steel is carved to approximate shape, then fairly heavy gold is applied over the carving in a similar fashion to koftgari work, and that gold is then carved with the motif.

Then there is the work that is essentially koftgari, and uses gold of about the same weight as other koftgari.

Then we have the cheapy stuff where thin gold sheet is glued over the steel. I've seen really old work done like this and using a heavy sort of natural resin, but these days they use a modern glue, I don't know exactly what, but my guess would be Alteco, a super-glue.

Oh yes, there's another way of doing it where a hole with undercut sides is cut in the steel, then a gold plug is hammered into the hole, leaving a mass of gold on the blade surface, this external gold is then carved with the motif.

I have seen parts of all these processes, but I do not know any of them in detail.

[David]

Thanks Alan, that's at least an overview.

[krissman]

Thanks for all the good information. Fire gilding is what I imagined was used the most and hadn't thought about the koftgari and "plug" methods. They all make sense.

[Will M]

Renaissance Wax is a micro crystaline wax that is great for protecting blades.
I apply it wth a soft cloth then a heat gun to help it bond. Always better to handle a dry blade than an oily one that attracts dust etc.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by krissman

Thanks for all the good information. Fire gilding is what I imagined was used the most and hadn't thought about the koftgari and "plug" methods. They all make sense.

Take a look at this video, the smith is based in Madura, Indonesia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1gKhl_CGlU

[A. G. Maisey]

) Possible Origin and Pamor?
Complete keris, including dress:- East Jawa
Pamor name I cannot give from what I can see

2) Can this keris be some sort of hierarchical marker? Does the kinatah in the middle of the blade have and meaning?
Almost anything can become a hierarchical marker, it depends on the hierarchy.
A band across the blade whether gold or pamor is usually understood as a protective device

3) The kinatah - Is it possible that the steel is carved to approximate shape, then fairly heavy gold is applied over the carving in a similar fashion to koftgari work, and that gold is then carved with the motif. (One possible method you mentioned above
Carved, yes, Anthony's video gives a broad approximation.
There are many methods of applying gold to iron and steel, in the video I believe we are seeing the necessary copper foundation being applied. Here is as good a non-technical explanation of the process as any.

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/fire/hd_fire.htm

4) (Last Pic). I posted this keris on another thread earlier and the opinion is that this keris was made say in the 1980s-1990s. What method would have been used for this kinatah taking into consideration more modern tools and methods were available then? Or was this perhaps fire guided too?

Yes, I think the time frame is about right, but I cannot give a supportable opinion on how it was done by looking at a picture.

[oariff]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, fire gilding was used, and maybe still is used. There was an old bloke in Solo who was doing it up until a few years ago I don't know if he still is.

Kinatah work has several levels of quality, and I doubt that I know them all.

Probably the very best is the method where the steel is carved to approximate shape, then fairly heavy gold is applied over the carving in a similar fashion to koftgari work, and that gold is then carved with the motif.

Then there is the work that is essentially koftgari, and uses gold of about the same weight as other koftgari.

Then we have the cheapy stuff where thin gold sheet is glued over the steel. I've seen really old work done like this and using a heavy sort of natural resin, but these days they use a modern glue, I don't know exactly what, but my guess would be Alteco, a super-glue.

Oh yes, there's another way of doing it where a hole with undercut sides is cut in the steel, then a gold plug is hammered into the hole, leaving a mass of gold on the blade surface, this external gold is then carved with the motif.

I have seen parts of all these processes, but I do not know any of them in detail.

Hi Alan,

Which method do you think has been applied in this keris?
Has this particular kinatah on both sides have a name?
When gold was first introduced into keris - was it for show of power/wealth or was it more for Tuah? Or both?

Cheers.

[A. G. Maisey]

I think it is probably fire gilded, but this is an opinion based on a photo that has been viewed on a screen. Don't quote me.

I would call it lung-lungan = vines, maybe it has other names also.

I do not know when gold was first used on keris.

My opinion as to the reason for its use is that it would have been used as a hierarchical marker. Certainly not for any talismanic reason.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do not know when gold was first used on keris.

My opinion as to the reason for its use is that it would have been used as a hierarchical marker. Certainly not for any talismanic reason.

I also don't have a clue when it first was used.

The blade shown is very old IMHO but I am not sure if we will see a later addition here but I am sure it wasn't done on a selling purpose, I found this blade with a plastic scabbard in a trash box years ago.

[oariff]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I also don't have a clue when it first was used.

The blade shown is very old IMHO but I am not sure if we will see a later addition here but I am sure it wasn't done on a selling purpose, I found this blade with a plastic scabbard in a trash box years ago.

Thanks Detlef. Was the gold done together when the keris was forged or put on much later? What method for this one? Fire guilded too?

BTW - nice keris. Let me know when you get tired of looking at this one too.

Cheers.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thanks Detlef. Was the gold done together when the keris was forged or put on much later? What method for this one? Fire guilded too?

BTW - nice keris. Let me know when you get tired of looking at this one too.

You're welcome Oariff! I strongly guess that the gandik figure is a later addition and I don't know which gilding method was used.
Will let you know when I will part with the keris!

Regards,
Detlef

[oariff]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think it is probably fire gilded, but this is an opinion based on a photo that has been viewed on a screen. Don't quote me.

I would call it lung-lungan = vines, maybe it has other names also.

I do not know when gold was first used on keris.

My opinion as to the reason for its use is that it would have been used as a hierarchical marker. Certainly not for any talismanic reason.

Hi Alan,

Thanks for your reply. I posted this keris here (as we are on the same subject) and would like your thoughts on the following:
1) Possible Origin and Pamor?
2) Can this keris be some sort of hierarchical marker? Does the kinatah in the middle of the blade have and meaning?
3) The kinatah - Is it possible that the steel is carved to approximate shape, then fairly heavy gold is applied over the carving in a similar fashion to koftgari work, and that gold is then carved with the motif. (One possible method you mentioned above)

4) (Last Pic). I posted this keris on another thread earlier and the opinion is that this keris was made say in the 1980s-1990s. What method would have been used for this kinatah taking into consideration more modern tools and methods were available then? Or was this perhaps fire guided too?

Cheers.