The Sinhalese Kastane: Its Development, Decoration and Symbolism

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th February 2014, 02:29 PM

Salaams All... I would suggest that a number of lead in articles and illustrations be added at about this point to create a foundation of support ideas for any sort of semi conclusions and mid research results so far...

I have seen some of the advertising for the brilliant work by Robert Hales and have taken one of those pages to illustrate 3 beautiful related examples ... The Indian Connection perhaps or part of it? The descriptions are the authors view and may not reflect the broader concept of "stylistic" as opposed to "actual"...from the mythical viewpoint ...but it is the artwork placed here that is important.

napoleon · 28th February 2014, 09:53 AM

saalams ibrahiim,hello jim,yes i fully accept regional and artistic variation,but my point is where weapons have a point of origin,you then have provenance as with the weapons from candy royal palace,artists do tend to be recognisable by their overall style,so i think that if you were to compare high end examples,you could identify one royal workshop, it is a begining i think but in order to do so need pictures of high quality swords,so anyone lucky enough to own such a piece could we see them please

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st March 2014, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by napoleon

saalams ibrahiim,hello jim,yes i fully accept regional and artistic variation,but my point is where weapons have a point of origin,you then have provenance as with the weapons from candy royal palace,artists do tend to be recognisable by their overall style,so i think that if you were to compare high end examples,you could identify one royal workshop, it is a begining i think but in order to do so need pictures of high quality swords,so anyone lucky enough to own such a piece could we see them please

Salaams Napoleon ~ We dont have a point of origin...That is the point. Moreover if we knew what artesans were working in which workshops and with what techniques and styles around the Pre Portuguese entry in 1505 we would be very nicely placed to engineer a full and proveable answer.. We have none of these... thus, we are insofar as these observations you note almost completely in the dark... Shining a light into those dark corners and unearthing what small details we can may lead us to a clearer image of how, what, where, when, why and who ?... regarding the mysterious Kastane.

For a substantial report on Royal Workshops please see http://www.craftrevival.org/Extralin...ageCode=P00014

Regards.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

napoleon · 3rd March 2014, 11:11 AM

saalams ibrahiim,thank you for the link,i wasnt offering a point of origin but a point from which to start,that is something of known origin such as the swords and piha kaetta from kandy royal palace ,what can definatley be said is that these do come from a known point in time and a known place,it may not be pre portugese ,but my belief is that if there are more swords such as these then perhaps a broad frame work could be established in terms of dating,and probably regional variation,getting back to the point of origin start from what is known and try to work backwards and forwards regards napoleon

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd March 2014, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by napoleon

saalams ibrahiim,thank you for the link,i wasnt offering a point of origin but a point from which to start,that is something of known origin such as the swords and piha kaetta from kandy royal palace ,what can definatley be said is that these do come from a known point in time and a known place,it may not be pre portugese ,but my belief is that if there are more swords such as these then perhaps a broad frame work could be established in terms of dating,and probably regional variation,getting back to the point of origin start from what is known and try to work backwards and forwards regards napoleon

Salaams Napoleon... Can you tell me from which point in time / known place the Kastane comes?

What I can say is that we know a lot more now than we did a year ago, however, we may never know for sure about the full intricacies of this weapon...thus we may have to move forward using generalities "maybe and possibly" since there are so many imponderables.

Regional variation is always something we are looking for and close relationships appear in Javanese, Tibettan and Indian weapons ...but you may also have to look at the effects on the early system caused by the 3 invader countries and how that has thrown the link to their past traditions for example in steel making. Impact on design may have come from European styles and that is where the problem really difuses widely...with influence caused by possible early pre 1505AD(ie Pre Portuguese period) weapon imports from Red Sea, Arabian Sea and Gulf ports by the wide ranging sea merchants.. The Sri Lankan Moors.

It could be argued that we have created more questions than we have solved, moreover, the ball of string has only just begun to unravel... Who knows what other knots we may encounter on the way?

There appears to be a close tie-up design-wise in the Piha Khaeta and its close proximity inside the Royal Workshops organisation. Shape and form appear similar and design swirls and decorative features, not least the spill over onto the blade in lavish stylistic decoration are interesting as well as the Zoomorhic hilt that so much resembles the Kastane monster deity though appears to have birdlike feathers and proportions in some examples, though not all.. See http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000498.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 3rd March 2014, 06:02 PM

Hi Napoleon,

What I would point out here is that the purpose of this topic in this thread is to discover and discuss more on the development of the kasthane as a recognized indigenous form of sword in Sri Lanka, and possibilities for its origins and the symbolism seen in its decoration.
Much of what we are discussing are examples and records of potential clues in these aspects, so actually Napoleon, what you are suggesting is pretty much what we have been doing and in point of fact we have been working on for years

It is interesting to look through the search here to see the discussions over years and how far we have come though (my own research goes back only about 10 years).

Interesting observation concerning the identification of 'high end' weapons by stylistic association of certain artisans, and that factor does often come into play in identification of certain weapons in many cases overall . I would note that it is not a universally possible standard however, and in the case of the Royal Workshops in Kandy, it seems the artisans were collectively following the directives of those in power. With this circumstance it would seem that they were following guidelines in their work and that individual license would not be likely. It seems one reference I recall noted this was apparent in that these artisans did not sign their work in the Kandyan shops.

The issue of regional variation has almost typically been recognized as a problem in classification of ethnographic weapons overall as diffusion of forms through trade, warfare, colonialization and nomadic circumstances are ever present factors challenging such specific identifications often attempted.
What has been proposed here in a number of instances is that perhaps regional variation may account for some of the notable differences in some examples of the kasthane. It seems clear that certain similarly formed sword hilts in other cultural regions reveal distinct associations.

As Ibrahiim has well noted, we may have revealed more questions than answers here, but it that is often the nature of research and what is important is that these are what may lead us to key clues in the larger scope of the study.

I do very much appreciate your interest and participation in this study and its indeed good to see we share common views in our efforts here.
I also agree that I look forward to seeing examples of other collectors here, and on that note I am most grateful to Ibrahiim for furnishing the outstanding illustrations and references to date here.

All best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th March 2014, 09:05 AM

Salaams All Note to Library~ The Zoomorphic styles of India need to be brought into focus since that is the largest and closest neighbour to the old Sri Lankan situation and must have played an important part in design and style influence..and since the religious form was broadly quite similar. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16363

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

27th February 2014, 02:29 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All... I would suggest that a number of lead in articles and illustrations be added at about this point to create a foundation of support ideas for any sort of semi conclusions and mid research results so far... I have seen some of the advertising for the brilliant work by Robert Hales and have taken one of those pages to illustrate 3 beautiful related examples ... The Indian Connection perhaps or part of it? The descriptions are the authors view and may not reflect the broader concept of "stylistic" as opposed to "actual"...from the mythical viewpoint ...but it is the artwork placed here that is important. Attached Images

28th February 2014, 09:53 AM	#2
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	kastane saalams ibrahiim,hello jim,yes i fully accept regional and artistic variation,but my point is where weapons have a point of origin,you then have provenance as with the weapons from candy royal palace,artists do tend to be recognisable by their overall style,so i think that if you were to compare high end examples,you could identify one royal workshop, it is a begining i think but in order to do so need pictures of high quality swords,so anyone lucky enough to own such a piece could we see them please

3rd March 2014, 11:11 AM	#4
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	kastane saalams ibrahiim,thank you for the link,i wasnt offering a point of origin but a point from which to start,that is something of known origin such as the swords and piha kaetta from kandy royal palace ,what can definatley be said is that these do come from a known point in time and a known place,it may not be pre portugese ,but my belief is that if there are more swords such as these then perhaps a broad frame work could be established in terms of dating,and probably regional variation,getting back to the point of origin start from what is known and try to work backwards and forwards regards napoleon

4th March 2014, 09:05 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Indian Influence on Sri Lankan artesan design. Salaams All Note to Library~ The Zoomorphic styles of India need to be brought into focus since that is the largest and closest neighbour to the old Sri Lankan situation and must have played an important part in design and style influence..and since the religious form was broadly quite similar. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16363 Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

3rd March 2014, 06:02 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Hi Napoleon, What I would point out here is that the purpose of this topic in this thread is to discover and discuss more on the development of the kasthane as a recognized indigenous form of sword in Sri Lanka, and possibilities for its origins and the symbolism seen in its decoration. Much of what we are discussing are examples and records of potential clues in these aspects, so actually Napoleon, what you are suggesting is pretty much what we have been doing and in point of fact we have been working on for years It is interesting to look through the search here to see the discussions over years and how far we have come though (my own research goes back only about 10 years). Interesting observation concerning the identification of 'high end' weapons by stylistic association of certain artisans, and that factor does often come into play in identification of certain weapons in many cases overall . I would note that it is not a universally possible standard however, and in the case of the Royal Workshops in Kandy, it seems the artisans were collectively following the directives of those in power. With this circumstance it would seem that they were following guidelines in their work and that individual license would not be likely. It seems one reference I recall noted this was apparent in that these artisans did not sign their work in the Kandyan shops. The issue of regional variation has almost typically been recognized as a problem in classification of ethnographic weapons overall as diffusion of forms through trade, warfare, colonialization and nomadic circumstances are ever present factors challenging such specific identifications often attempted. What has been proposed here in a number of instances is that perhaps regional variation may account for some of the notable differences in some examples of the kasthane. It seems clear that certain similarly formed sword hilts in other cultural regions reveal distinct associations. As Ibrahiim has well noted, we may have revealed more questions than answers here, but it that is often the nature of research and what is important is that these are what may lead us to key clues in the larger scope of the study. I do very much appreciate your interest and participation in this study and its indeed good to see we share common views in our efforts here. I also agree that I look forward to seeing examples of other collectors here, and on that note I am most grateful to Ibrahiim for furnishing the outstanding illustrations and references to date here. All best regards, Jim