Miquelet Pistol, decoration and maker questions

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

It is a little confusing to see Castilian style and Portuguese applied to that first pistol in post #30. I see the butt and butt plate distinctions you spoke about, are there any other differences that make this "Castilian style and Portuguese"?

Where did the image come from, your friends book? Do you have a closeup of the lock?

The Castillian style only refers to the lock (fecho) type. As there were also Portuguese versions, the authors make a point in distinguish them.
I don't have any close ups; i have a mere couple books and i scan them or i picture them while i discuss things in here.
These images are taken from the book ESPINGARDA PERFEYTA/ THE PERFECT GUN, a work written in the XVIII century by two (suspectedly three) Portuguese gun smith brothers, considered a unique achievement for the period, when the revealing of such techniques was considered a secret. This book became bilingual in 1974 when Rainer Daehnhardt and Keith Neal decided to translate it to english (ISBN 0 85667 014 6). You should buy one of these for your library .
Here are some close ups of patilha locks à Castelhana. Perhaps you may recognize the differences; i wouldn't .


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[dana_w]

I have a copy of Espingarda Perfeyta somewhere. I'll go do a little more reading. Thanks for the info.

[dana_w]

What Neal & Daehnhart call "Castilian style" in fig 16 (top two photos of your post #32) and fig 29 (third photo of your post #32) seem VERY different. I'd enjoy seeing some more precisely defined and explicit examples.

After reading both of their books, I am a big fan of Dr. Lavin's scholarship when compared to Neal. Don't get me wrong both books are great, but Lavin likes to use contemporary terms and names ("llave ala moda"), while Neal uses locations ("Madrid Lock"). Lavin seems to be the expert when it comes to Etymology.

[fernando]

I wouldn't sustain an academical discussion on this subject, as i don't have enough luggage for that. It could be a matter of interpretation, or a matter of being locks of different periods belonging in the same timeline, or a matter of only wishing to call a lock "à Castelhana" to define it as non Portuguese (for the matter); i wouldn't bet on which interpretation to adopt.
... Neither i would contradict you on which author has more authority in this area.
I know that the terminology is not entirely the same in either Country. I often see the patilha lock being called over here "patilha de invenção" (invention patilla), for one.
The fact is that Daehnhardt has in his collection locks by the thousand (thousand). In a quick (three hour) visit to his museum/residence i have seen several hundreds of them ... while my attention was locked on his vast amount of weapons. So i gather he should now a reasonable deal about locks.
Just as an aside, the curator of the Victoria Albert Museum paid him a visit to appreciate his locks colection and, at sight of the situation, decided to stay i the house for three days to fully cover the whole bunch.

[dana_w]

I would LOVE to see a collection like the one you are talking about. I knew nothing about Professor Rainer Daehnhardt's collection until now. Thanks for putting me on the path! http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/history.htm http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/RDCollection.htm

A big problem I have in studying this subject is so much contradictory information on some of the details, and how much wrong information. For example Christies called this a Miquelet lock. I guess it could be a "Madrid" type Miquelet lock, but it sure doesn't look like it from the photo. Where are the horizontal sears?

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...2-details.aspx

[Fernando K]

Hola:

Creo que no hay confusion por lo sostenido por NEAL y LAVIN: uno habla de "a la moda" y el otro "a la moda de Madrid" porque esta llave fué producida, mayormente, por los arcabuceros de Madrid. Se trata de una llave (lock) con los "calzos" en el gatillo, el de media monta (half-cock) en la parte delantera, y el de disparo (full-cock) en la parte trasera.

LAVIN incluye un dibujo en página 183, y en el apendice A, en pagina 183, incluye un documento de Palacio sobre el precio a cobrar por los armeros al Rey.
En pàgina 287, del GLOSARIO, incluye una mencion: "Media llave a la moda con el juego al revés", o sea, con los "calzos" colocados de manera inversa, como sucede en el arma militar descripta por Barcelo Rubí en su Armamento Militar Español.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Hello:

I think there is confusion about what is claimed by NEAL and LAVIN: one speaks of "fashionable" and the other "fashionable Madrid" because this key was produced, mostly, by the arquebusiers of Madrid. This is a key (lock) with the "wedges" on the trigger, the mounting medium (half-cock) on the front, and the shutter (full-cock) in the rear.

LAVIN includes a drawing on page 183, and Appendix A, on page 183, includes a document Palace on the price charged for the dealers to the King.
On page 287, the glossary includes a mention: "Media key to fashion with the game backwards", ie the "chocks" placed in reverse, as in the military weapon described by Barcelo Rubi in Armament Spanish Military.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

.... For example Christies called this a Miquelet lock. I guess it could be a "Madrid" type Miquelet lock, but it sure doesn't look like it from the photo. Where are the horizontal sears? ...

Dana, you have enough knowledge to know this isn't at all a patilha (Miquelete) lock; even i know it.
(Commercial) people like to put appealing names on things. If you browse on antique cannons you will notice that the majority of them for sale are pretended to be Portuguese. Well, hardly one is